This is everything I could find relating to the Bulls about the KT and letters concerning them. I also have first hand accounts of the crusades if anyone's is interested but i will refrain posting them until requested, to prevent the thread from being too cluttered.

Thanks for posting-- where did you get these?  :confused1:

BTW-- I have been attempting to discuss KT's in the Forum for quite some time. It seems that until now everyone has been terrified of the subject.

I'll respond more after reading.

I found these of of a Portuguese site that was about the KT. Thus the reason for the odd Spanish word here and there. It's funny, on the site they were complaining that they could only find English translations of the Bulls.

Here's the link: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.oocities.org/templosalomao/docuм.htm&prev=search


Just click one of the links at this site and it'll take you to the docuмent.

On the matter regarding Papal Bulls and their infallibility I decided it best to just ask a priest. The priest I asked is a part of a Traditional Catholic parish that is still in a diocese. He said "Papal Infallibility does not apply to Papal Bulls because Papal Bulls are legal docuмents dealing with human law. Furthermore whenever a topic is under the umbrella of Papal Infallibility it is declared within the topic so that there is no question whatsoever."

So there you have it.  

You mean YOU have it. An Anonymous Catholic quoting an anonymous priest.  :roll-laugh1:


My understanding of Papal Infallibility is

1--- Church Council with Placet of the Pope

2--- Papal Bull

3--- Papal Encyclical

 

I would suggest reading Fr Cuthbert- Butler's History of The Vatican Council for an understanding of Papal Infallibility.  :ready-to-eat:

After having read only the first of the above Bulls, the idea that there is nothing in them referring to Faith & Morals is as absurd as can be imagined. Every page REEKS of heresy, blasphemy and other things the Pope cannot bring himself to even describe specifically.

So far the Pope is full of praise for Philip. Among other comments, the King is described as Not being motivated by greed.

I cannot thank AC enough for posting these docuмents.

I hope the Forum is printing out copies of these Bulls before they are removed from the net.  :ready-to-eat:

In these docuмents they neither discuss or define any specific moral or dogma. Rather the docuмents specifically discuss they guiltiness of the Templars or the distribution of the Templars property in order to recover the recently lost Holy Land.


Papal Infallibility only applies when teaching about specific morals or dogma. Not to mention one of the docuмents speaks about having doubts about the circuмstances upon which the confessions were obtained.

If there is anything a pope may speak fallibly about, it's his personal view of a human being. While I don't see any evidence towards Phillip conspired with the Pope at the time of his election, I do see evidence towards Phillip having Clement elected for his rather mellow personality. Many descriptions of Clement entail his aversions to conflict and his generally mellow personality. Phillip needed a mellow pope for his plans regarding his French empire. Also it was only after Phillip was being accused of motivation by greed that he dropped his claims on the confiscated Templar property. One can also see Phillips support waning after the Council of Vienne ruled in favor of legal defense for the Templars, and accusations of greed coming against him. He renounces his claims and then ceases all of his direct intervention, which was the only testimony towards his "zeal". Little inconsistencies and lack tangible evidence not retrieved from medieval torture, might give one serious misgivings about the Templars trial. Without the umbrella of Papal Infallibility the whole ordeal has a very weak foundation and since no definitive answer has emerged regarding whether whether the Bulls actually deal in morals, we must leave the silent readers to draw their own conclusions.


Another quick observation before I jump off the soapbox, notice how desperate things become regarding the Holy Land after the suppression of the order. If the Bulls are to prove anything in that regard it's that the Templars were the only thing standing between Islam and the Holy Land, regardless of the accusations being true or not.

Maybe you are reading a different translation than moi. :confused1:

 Unless I am mistaken, sodomy, heresy and blasphemy( all of which are mentioned specifically by the Pope) fall in the catagory of faith & morals-- fact is that the infallible Bulls of Clement have never been rescinded.

Fr Parsons essay in vol 2 easily debunks the Clement/ Philip 'deal' allegation.

At any rate, many thanks for posting docuмents.

I will comment more after reading all the Bulls.  :soapbox:

It is explicitly mentioned but it does not teach or define. It discusses whether or not the Templars are guilty of these crimes. It's a transcript of the Trials and the actions being taken throughout this trial.

"In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a supernatural sense of faith the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living magisterium, unfailingly adheres to this faith." Catechism, p. 235, #889

"The Roman Pontiff... enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals... This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself." Catechism, pg. 235, #891

"The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when ... he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such." Code of Canon Law, Can. 747


Just some quotes regarding Papal Infallibility to help us know what to look for in these docuмents to determine where they teach Infallibly.