I did find a website that has the Council of Vienne:http:www.dailycatholic.org/history/15ecuмe1.htm
Still Can't find any of the Bulls yet. I can only find summaries so if anyone has any idea of where to find some direct translations of Pope Clement's Papal Bulls please post it to the thread.

My understanding of Infallibility is

1-- A Council such as Nicea, Trent etc-- with Placet of The Pope.

2-- Papal Bull

3-- Papal Encyclical

Good luck locating English translations of the Pope's Bulls. I have been trolling that in the Forum for a few yrs.

BTW-- The Papal Bulls re: tobacco have been just as difficult to procure.  :detective:

So do you have any solid evidence to support Papal Bull infallibility? Because my understanding was infallibility only extended to matters of faith and morals. Considering most of Clements Bulls regarded them and how their property should be confiscated I think their may be error in the harsh treatment of the Templars. Seeing how the Templars were neither a matter of faith or morals.

BTW: Still can't find the Bulls anywhere. Plenty of opinions about it but no actual docuмents. I even searched the Papal encyclical. The nly Bull their regarding Clement was about "Exivi De Paradiso", which discussed the rules of Friar Minor.

Quote from: roscoe

My understanding of Infallibility is

1-- A Council such as Nicea, Trent etc-- with Placet of The Pope.

2-- Papal Bull

3-- Papal Encyclical

Good luck locating English translations of the Pope's Bulls. I have been trolling that in the Forum for a few yrs.

BTW-- The Papal Bulls re: tobacco have been just as difficult to procure.  :detective:

So do you have any solid evidence to support Papal Bull infallibility? Because my understanding was infallibility only extended to matters of faith and morals. Considering most of Clements Bulls regarded them and how their property should be confiscated I think their may be error in the harsh treatment of the Templars. Seeing how the Templars were neither a matter of faith or morals.

BTW: Still can't find the Bulls anywhere. Plenty of opinions about it but no actual docuмents. I even searched the Papal encyclical. The nly Bull their regarding Clement was about "Exivi De Paradiso", which discussed the rules of Friar Minor.

Sorry but I cannot remember the specific source for my conception of Infallibility. You are going to have to take my word for it. . The case of the Templars is probably the most famous case of Faith & Morals that Holy Church has ever encountered-- with exception of v2 anti-church.

If you would like to trash Clement & Philip be my guest-- it has no effect on my faith.   :cheers:

This isn't a subject I know but I do know that with these controversial subjects books never quite solve the issues definitively. You can read all you want but no matter if you find someone who says the KT were innocent, in the end common sense should tell you that there were a few bad apples in the bunch. It's a big mistake to idolize any group, even bands of Catholic knights who sang psalms before battle. People are twisted.

But that is the thing that gets me. The entire order was tortured and burnt at the stake for crimes of great magnitude. There was no evidence to suggest that anyone had committed any heresy an  the Council of Vienne says as much. The Templar Order had acquired much wealth and power which naturally causes envy and breeds enemies. They were also the most difficult group to gain entry to. To have your son gain entry into the Order was a most prominent achievement. The brightest minds in Europe were humbled at the opportunity to join the Templars. They stared out in poverty and rose to wealth surpassing all of the richest of European kingdoms (which was France at the time). They had power in the form of the worlds most elite army. They stood as a stone fortress against the evils of the world nearly destroying Islam and bringing Catholicism to all of Africa and Asia. But at the height of their power, when Islam was nearing it's collapse rumors of heresy begin to swirl and the order loses most of it's support allowing Islam to recuperate and regain control. Then the order is condemned by Pope Clement the V under highly questionable methods that were barely legal. France leads the charge despite suspicions of King Phillips motives. Then confessions were only obtained by use of torture which also made said confessions illegitimate. Yet the trials continued and and the Templars found guilty as a whole. The Pope releases a Bull telling all western nations to round up all Templars and have them arrested. Many of these nations (such as England) refused and Portugal even extended amnesty to all Templars under the pretense that there was no evidence.

I don't know about you but the whole thing sounds wrong. Personally I suspect the hand of Lucifer given how the whole ordeal uses deception to condemn the human race (The Lucifer Special!).

As for the idolization you mention I simply say no. I don't idolize the Templars or any other human other than Christ. Humans are fallible and prone to wrongness. I do however admire the Templars for their efforts towards the reclamation of the Holy Land. Not to mention the conversion of thousands of muslims. Many people may be twisted but I don't see any evidence to count the Knights Templar among those who are.

The criteria for Papal Infallibility.

1. “the Roman Pontiff”
2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….”)
3. “he defines”
4. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
5. “must be held by the whole Church”

So without the actual Papal Bulls of Clement we cannot determine whether his words were infallible. Although docuмents, such as bulls, are indeed fallible.

Apparently there is a Knights Templar running around. Although it's really just a bunch of crazy right-wing protestants that solicit money to go to places plagued by Islam and do nothing. They literally do nothing. They have a website that has a tab describing what they do and they literally do nothing. They "meet" with local leadership and talk? I actually don't know. If anyone cares to look at this joke it's at http://www.knightstemplarinternational.com/

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

So as a young man who regards his Catholic faith with fiery zeal I began to look around in the history of the Knights Templar. Unfortunately I can only find liberal pages that say the confessions of sodomy were legitimate despite the use of torture.
So I am inquiring about any good reads on the topic that are untainted by the grubby fingers of liberalism.

The Knights Hospitaller were far better than Knights Templar. The Knights Templar might have started out good, but later on they were corrupted with witchcraft and whatnot.

Citations? I have read many indications that the accusations of witchcraft, sodomy and just general heresy have been baseless.

Sources for crimes of KT have been provided in the books referenced above. Ask and you shall receive.  :cheers:

10 Bulls condemning KT have never been rescinded.

The Forum apparently has yet another member claiming to be Pope.  :roll-laugh1:

Get back to us in a few years.

We do not know that Bulls are infallible. Even you failed to provide a source to show where it says Bulls are under Papal infallibility. I have read though serveral of your sources and stand firm in my conclusions. Clement was a patsy to Phillip the Fair. The Templars only crime was possessing too much wealth and having a large debt owed to them by Phillip the Fair. I also have failed to see where there are any indications of witchcraft within the order.