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Author Topic: Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave  (Read 10261 times)

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Offline Immaculata001

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Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
« on: June 03, 2014, 08:25:43 PM »
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  • Tuam Mass Grave

    Mass septic tank grave 'containing the skeletons of 800 babies' at site of Irish home for unmarried mothers
    Hundreds of babies and toddlers believed to be buried in Tuam, Co Galway
    The site lies next to a former home for single mothers and their children
    The children's home was run by Bon Secours nuns between 1925 and 1961
    Children were malnourished and neglected, which caused many of deaths
    They also died of TB, pneumonia, measles, convulsions and gastroenteritis
    Relative of one missing child has filed complaint with local police, the gardai
    By ALISON O'REILLY
    PUBLISHED: 03:56 EST, 2 June 2014 | UPDATED: 12:29 EST, 2 June 2014


    The bodies of nearly 800 babies are believed to have been interred in a concrete tank beside a former home for unmarried mothers.
    The dead babies are thought to have been secretly buried beside a home for single mothers and their children in County Galway, Ireland, over a period of 36 years.
    It is suspected that 796 children were interred on unconsecrated ground without headstones or coffins next to the home run by the Bon Secours nuns in Tuam between 1925 and 1961.
    Newly unearthed reports show that they suffered malnutrition and neglect, which caused the deaths of many, while others died of measles, convulsions, TB, gastroenteritis and pneumonia.


    The babies were usually buried in a plain shroud without a coffin in a plot that had housed a water tank attached to the workhouse that preceded the mother and child home.
    No memorial was erected to the dead children and the grave was left unmarked.
    The site is now surrounded by a housing estate. But a missing persons' report just filed to Irish police, gardai, means that the burial site may now be excavated.
    A relative of one boy who lived there, William Joseph Dolan, has made a formal complaint to gardai after she failed to find his death certificate, despite records in the home stating that he had died

    A source close to the investigation said: 'No one knows the total number of babies in the grave.
    There are 796 death records but they are only the ones we know of.
    'God knows who else is in the grave. It's been lying there for years and no one knows the full extent or total of bodies down there.'
    The existence of the grave was uncovered by local woman Catherine Corless, who compiled the records of 796 babies who died at the home. She has established a group called the Children's Home Graveyard Committee to erect a memorial.
    She said: 'People who had relations there are the most interested. They are delighted something is being done.


    'When I was doing the research, someone mentioned there was a graveyard there for babies but I found out there was more to it than that.'
    With the help of the Births and Deaths Registrar in Galway, Mrs Corless researched all children whose place of death was marked 'Children's Home, Tuam'. Galway County Council has all the cemetery books for Mayo and Galway, and with the help of the archivist there, Mrs Corless cross-checked the grave records.
    She said: 'There was just one child who was buried in a family plot in the graveyard in Tuam. That's how I am certain there are 796 children in the mass grave. These girls were run out of their family home and never taken back, so why would they take the babies back to bury them, either?'


    The records state that a young single mother called Bridget Dolan from Clonfert, Co Galway, gave birth to two boys who were placed in the home.
    John Desmond Dolan was born on 22 February 1946 weighing 8lb 9oz. His birth was recorded as 'normal' but he died from measles on 11 June 1947.
    His brother, William Joseph Dolan, was born on  21 May 1950 and was said to have died the following year, but there is no death certificate for William.
    His relative, who asked not to be named, said: 'I just want to know what happened to him.  He may have passed on, yet there is no death certificate. I believe he might have been fostered out, and then moved to the US.
    'He could still be alive, or he's with his brother in the grave. I want to find out.'
    A local health board inspection report carried out in 1944 reveals the conditions the children and their mothers lived in.
    It reveals that in April that year, 271 children were listed as living there with 61 single mothers, a total of 333 - way over its capacity of 243.
    One 13-month-old boy was described as a 'miserable, emaciated child with voracious appetite and no control over bodily functions and probably mentally defective'.
    In the same room was a 'delicate' ten-month-old baby who was a 'child of itinerants', while one five-year-old child was described as having 'hands growing near shoulders'.
    Another 31 infants in the same room were described as 'poor babies, emaciated and not thriving'.
    The majority were aged between three weeks and 13 months and were 'fragile, pot-bellied and emaciated'.
    The oldest child whodied there was Sheila Tuohy, aged nine, in 1934. One of the youngest was Thomas Duffy, aged two days.
    Teresa Kelly, the chairman of the Children's Home Graveyard Committee, said an excavation was long overdue.
    'It's an awful story,' she said.  'It's a mass grave.  Many of the babies were malnourished. We want to make sure those children's identities are acknowledged. They had names, they were human beings, not animals.'
    The grave was discovered in the 1970s by 12-year-old friends, Barry Sweeney and Francis Hopkins.
    Mr Sweeney said: 'It was a concrete slab and we used to play there but there was always something hollow underneath it so we decided to bust it open and it was full to the brim of skeletons.
    'The priest came over and blessed it. I don't know what they did with it after that. You could see all the skulls.'
    The home, which closed in 1961, was one of several such establishments - Catholic and Protestant - for 'fallen women' across Ireland which had astonishingly high infant mortality rates.
    Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary was another: in the first year after it opened in 1930, 60 babies died out of a total of 120. Those who survived, meanwhile, were often sold abroad to childless couples.
    At a memorial service at the site of the home yesterday, it emerged that women who gave birth at Sean Ross and other homes plan to file missing persons reports in a bid to track down their children.


    Philomena Lee, whose three-year-old son, Anthony, was handed over by nuns at Sean Ross to an American family 60 years ago, was among those at the memorial service.
    She said: 'It's not about getting angry, it's about doing what's right and it's about opening all the files.'
    And Mrs Lee, whose story was made into the Oscar-nominated film, Philomena, added: 'Maybe the State never thought the mass graves would be found out about. They seem to be wanting to push it under the carpet, but it needs to be told.'
    She said: 'I don't know how many bodies of mothers and children are in graves all over the country,
    'I'm shocked at the latest news of the mass grave [at Tuam] - it's appalling and shouldn't be hidden.




    "But 'tis strange:
    And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
    The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
    Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
    In deepest consequence.." Banquo, from Shakespeare's Macbeth


    Offline Tiffany

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 04:13:40 AM »
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  • God bless those involved in the recovery effort.


    Offline ggreg

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 05:38:41 AM »
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  • It is not a great advertisement for Catholic Ireland or pre-Vatican II Catholicism.

    The pro-aborts could argue, that if an institution run by Catholic nuns was doing this then the Church had double standards when it came to the "sanctity of life".  It would be hard to disagree.

    "Don't abort your children but we will neglect them to death and then flush their bodies down the toilet".  Do as we say not as we do.

    The bishops and cardinals who oversaw this are long since dead, but if they were alive I am sure they would say, "we didn't know".

    Offline TKGS

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #3 on: June 04, 2014, 06:27:55 AM »
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  • The first death they hid was probably very tragic but due to someone's carelessness or negligence.  But once the first one is hidden and corrective action is not taken, it becomes so much easier the next time and the time after that.  Soon, it's just a normal matter of course.  This is another demonstration that the first real big sin is often very difficult, but comes easier and easier as time goes on.

    The home was open until 1961.  Why did it close?  Did the hierarchy know what was going on?  Did that have an impact on the reason it closed before the moral revolution of the 1960s even got started?  These are questions we will likely not be answered until the Last Day.

    But ggreg is right.  How many Irish women are alive today whose babies are in that grave?  They are carrying with them dreadful secrets and likely lost the faith years ago which contributed to the incredibly fast fall of the Irish Church.

    If they were so morally corrupt to do this, I fear that they would also have been too morally corrupt to worry about baptizing these poor souls.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #4 on: June 04, 2014, 07:55:58 AM »
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  • Maybe I am wrong for saying this but I have often wondered, why did God allow Vatican II to happen?  Could actions like this be the reason?
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline stgobnait

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 08:22:11 AM »
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  • Truly heartbreaking to hear this awful story. I often wondered why God appeared to abandon this country, Godforsaken. indeed we are.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 08:45:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Maybe I am wrong for saying this but I have often wondered, why did God allow Vatican II to happen?  Could actions like this be the reason?


    Very few people want to admit this, but the corruption and decay of Vatican II did NOT happen overnight.  Many Traditional Catholics have the "Fiftiesism" mindset, but Bishop Williamson traces the gradual decay to the Renaissance; that's true both in faith and morals.  Vatican II didn't simply happen magically and without cause.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 08:57:16 AM »
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  • I'd be careful of the anti-Catholic spin here, though, and not getting the full story.  Here's one quote:

    Quote
    Newly unearthed reports show that they suffered malnutrition and neglect, which caused the deaths of many, while others died of measles, convulsions, TB, gastroenteritis and pneumonia.


    Back then, lots of children died of various diseases.  If the Sisters operated the facility for about 35 years, that's about 20 children a year who would have died.  Out of what size population?  Was that an unusually high death rate compared to the general population?  In what shape were some of these kids when they first arrived there?  Were some of them already sick or malnurished or "neglected" (as the article would have it) BEFORE they got to the facility?  Were some of them there PRECISELY BECAUSE they had been neglected or abused or something before they ended up the facility, so that the forensic evidence regarding "neglect" may be faulty.

    There's a strong anti-Catholic agenda at work in the world, and we have to be smart about what to believe and what not to.

    If you look at some of the pictures, the children appear to be being well taken care of.  They appear to be clean, are being fed, are shown playing, etc.  There's one picture caption that says:  "Dark secrets: Children at the tea room at Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary eat under the stern gaze of a nun."  You can barely see the nun's face.  You can see the cute, nicely-dressed children, sitting at table with neatly placed tableware.  They seem to be content and to be well taken care of.  What's this "stern gaze of a nun" except to feed the stereotype of the "abusive Catholic nun"?  What exactly was so "dark" about this picture?

    [PS -- as a warning, the DailyMail links always have impure pictures all over them]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 09:20:47 AM »
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  • Reading more into the article, it appears as if a lot of kids were placed there PRECISELY BECAUSE they had issues ... health issues, developmental / mental issues, etc.  And the average population sounds like it was around 250 children, so if 10% per year passed away (and many of them were sick or had problems to begin with), is that excessive compared to the average population, especially given that they had problems to begin with?

    Offline TKGS

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 09:26:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I'd be careful of the anti-Catholic spin here, though, and not getting the full story.  


    The problem is that by burying these children in unmarked mass graves in the manner that they did so violated even the basic tenets of the Catholic religion.  While you are correct that these during the early part of the 20th Century there was a greater danger of death from many causes that seem to be rare today and that sanitary conditions were such that some deaths may have resulted--and this was universal and not just a problem here--had the children been buried in a graveyard on the premises (or elsewhere) with markers and full recognition of the fact that they lived and died, there would be no scandal today!

    It really is that simple.  It's not simply anti-Catholic spin.  There is no indication that 800 children died in an epidemic that required immediate and un-marked burial.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 10:02:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    There is no indication that 800 children died in an epidemic that required immediate and un-marked burial.


    I understand that part, but you have to be aware of their "catapulting the propaganda" (to quote GW Bush).  If you read the article, the number 800 is even just speculation.  It's based on death records.  So far they have not exhumed the bodies to get an exact count of how many are in that particular grave.  Their spin is to make it look like the Nuns were running a nαzι-style death camp.  Be discerning.  Even if there's 5% truth to it, it's very very bad; but be careful not to swallow the 95% that's nothing but anti-Catholic BS.


    Offline wallflower

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 10:10:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: TKGS
    There is no indication that 800 children died in an epidemic that required immediate and un-marked burial.


    I understand that part, but you have to be aware of their "catapulting the propaganda" (to quote GW Bush).  If you read the article, the number 800 is even just speculation.  It's based on death records.  So far they have not exhumed the bodies to get an exact count of how many are in that particular grave.  Their spin is to make it look like the Nuns were running a nαzι-style death camp.  Be discerning.  Even if there's 5% truth to it, it's very very bad; but be careful not to swallow the 95% that's nothing but anti-Catholic BS.


    I agree. That is a large number of women and children they were caring for. I wonder what kind of funds they had, if any. If they didn't have strong support from the community or wealthy benefactors, it's possible that they simply didn't have what it took to keep everyone healthy or even give proper burials (which also cost money!).

    It sounds shocking at first but reading the article doesn't give any more details as to whether this neglect and these deaths and mass graves were deliberate or simply the best they could do with what they had.



     


    Offline scolairebocht

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 10:58:02 AM »
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  • I think this is in the category of anti-Catholic propaganda I'm afraid. There are no hard historical facts presented here about the circuмstances under which any of the children died and were buried e.g. there are no autopsies and no detailed medical reports, the number buried are just an assumption based on the number of children for whom there are death certificates but who could easily have been buried somewhere else anyway.

    Burial plots attached to old religious houses like this are the norm not the exception, and are even not uncommonly attached to old estate houses. They would be provided for the nuns or brothers to be buried in at least, and also you would expect paupers who couldn't afford burial costs to be catered for too and I'm sure that's what's happening here.

    Consequently to find such a burial plot beside such a house means nothing of itself, and an old concrete lined water tank seems as good a site as any for such a plot? There are no grounds whatsoever for thinking that it was unconsecrated ground or that the children received no proper funerals.

    Don't forget they all had death certificates which means that a doctor examined the cause of death and would be expected to report it to the authorities if there was anything untoward etc.

    That said it very well known that the religious orders that did the best for these children in these type of institutions in Ireland at the time had grossly insufficient funds from the state, and donations, to do the job well - and they constantly complained about this at the time. So yes I suspect some of these children might have survived under better conditions but the bare minimum was all that the religious orders could give them from the means they had to do so.

    Offline crossbro

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 11:23:46 AM »
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  • This happened over 36 years.
    That equals about 22 deaths a year.
    From the 1944 report there were probably on average 300 kids in the home at any given time.
    That would be 3600 "kid units" per year and on average 22 "death units" per year.

    The rate of death is .006. So, 6 kids in 1000 died on average.

    These women were abandoned by their families, it was a social issue- not an institutional issue.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Bodies of 800 Irish Infants Found in Mass Grave
    « Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 11:36:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I'd be careful of the anti-Catholic spin here, though, and not getting the full story.  


    The problem is that by burying these children in unmarked mass graves in the manner that they did so violated even the basic tenets of the Catholic religion.  While you are correct that these during the early part of the 20th Century there was a greater danger of death from many causes that seem to be rare today and that sanitary conditions were such that some deaths may have resulted--and this was universal and not just a problem here--had the children been buried in a graveyard on the premises (or elsewhere) with markers and full recognition of the fact that they lived and died, there would be no scandal today!

    It really is that simple.  It's not simply anti-Catholic spin.  There is no indication that 800 children died in an epidemic that required immediate and un-marked burial.


    Consider the source of the information and how it is consistent with their hatred of the Church in general. Be more discerning. Many people commenting on this thread seem to be guilty of rash judgment. Hardly anything is known about the motivations of the nuns, the nature of the facility in question (specialising in high-risk babies, perhaps ?), or anything else. Suppose the grave marker was taken away later, or the children buried in the large grave (which was a common practice for most of recorded history ; many people were buried in cheap mass graves, e.g. Mozart). Suppose the children buried there were put in the grave because they seemed to be contagious or for lack of resources.

    In any case, you all know hardly anything about the circuмstances of this situation. All of your information comes from a website that liberally uses the phrase "dead babies" and readily discusses the stereotypical "stern nun," with apparent diabolical glee.

    That so many people on this forum and elsewhere would lap up these horror stories is disgusting. We're supposed to be kind as doves, yes, but also wise as serpents. The absurd credulity of so many here on this issue almost makes me sick.