Author Topic: Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity  (Read 2921 times)

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Offline LaramieHirsch

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Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
« on: March 31, 2012, 12:06:37 PM »
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  • Vox Day, the blogger I enjoy reading, apparently disbelieves the Trinity.  

    I did not study Theology.  I studied English Literature.  Though, I am well-read when it comes to the Bible.  

    Still, his points demand an answer, and I really would like the questions he brings up to be resolved.  Is anyone able to take Vox to task here in what he states?

    Personally, in this, I think he is arrogant to consider the limitations of God.  As if he knew what it was like in all dimensions of existence.  But whatever.  

    I'm already engaged in a discussion on Logic in another forum, and I just can't wrap my mind around anything.  I'd appreciate the collective thoughts of Cath Info's smartest.  

    Without further ado:

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/03/false-doctrine-of-trinity.html

    The false doctrine of the Trinity

    The eighth point in Jamsco's attempted summary of my doctrinal beliefs is a succinct one. "8. The Trinity is obvious BS. It’s easily proved. [Direct quote from a comment here]." As it happens, he got that one entirely correct, which is not the case in two of the other ten points.

    Now, the falsity of the doctrine can be proved in a variety of ways, but since we're dealing with mainstream Churchianity here, I'll utilize the easiest and most obvious because those who subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity also subscribe to the doctrine of divine omniscience. Let's follow the logic:

    1. The Trinity is God as three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial. These three divine persons are combined in one being we call God.

    2. This one being is omniscient, and therefore knows everything.

    3. It is written, in Matthew 24:36: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not omniscient, and furthermore, do not possess the same knowledge as the Father.

    4. Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not co-equal and consubstantial with the Father. They may or may not be co-eternal.

    5. Being neither co-equal nor consubstantial, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not one being with the Father.

    6. Therefore, God is one person, the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity is a false one.

    I further note that we can branch from (3) and prove the falsehood of the Trinity in a slightly different manner.

    4b. Since God is omniscient and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not, neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit are God.

    5b. Therefore, God is one person, the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity is a false one.

    It should not escape one's attention that if one insists on clinging to the doctrine of the Trinity, it is necessary to abandon the doctrine of divine omniscience. Obviously, I subscribe to neither, but it is not possible to subscribe to both. My perspective is that divinity can be most usefully understood in a manner akin to human royalty. Prince Harry may be royal, but no one is under the impression that he is co-equal and consubstantial with his grandmother, the sovereign Queen Elizabeth. This is in keeping with the idea that both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are Man's advocates, they are not his judge.

    And for another perspective from one with doubts about the Trinity doctrine, this is an interesting summary of Isaac Newton's studies of the subject. Another one can be found here.

    In one notebook it is clear that, already in the early 1670's, Newton was absorbed by the doctrine of the Trinity. On this topic he studied extensively not only the Bible, but also much of the Church Fathers. Newton traced the doctrine of the trinity back to Athanasius (298- 373); he became convinced that before Athanasius the Church had no trinitarian doctrine. In the early 4th century Athanasius was opposed by Arius (256-336), who affirmed that God the Father had primacy over Christ. In 325 the Council of Nicea condemned as heretical the views of Arius. Thus, as viewed by Newton, Athanasius triumphed over Arius in imposing the false doctrine of the trinity on Christianity.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Roland Deschain

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 12:17:26 PM »
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  • I believe the answer rests with Christ's two natures. In his human nature he was inferior to the Father and may have even not known certain things. We read, for example, that Christ "grew in knowledge and wisdom." I believe these passages refer to certain limitations of His human nature.

    Now how he could know all things in his Divine Nature yet not know them in His Human Nature, I'm not sure. Ultimately we believe in the Triune God because He has revealed Himself as such. Many passages of Scripture, both Old and New, point to this reality. There is a point where human understanding ceases and we accept it because HE has revealed it.

    I'll take the rulings of the Fathers from the council of Nicea who were guided by the Holy Ghost into all Truth over this individual's exegesis, thank you.

    Please note I am not a theologian, neither do I play one on T.V.....


    Offline Graham

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 12:48:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    3. It is written, in Matthew 24:36: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not omniscient, and furthermore, do not possess the same knowledge as the Father.


    Haydock comments that this is Christ speaking as a man, to dissuade other men from asking after forbidden knowledge. It does not mean that the Son, "through whom all things were made [necessarily including time itself]," doesn't have foreknowledge of the end times.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #3 on: March 31, 2012, 01:42:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Roland Deschain
    Many passages of Scripture, both Old and New, point to this reality. There is a point where human understanding ceases and we accept it because HE has revealed it.


    Could you, or anyone else, please provide which passages these are?  I honestly have never looked into this matter before.

    Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    3. It is written, in Matthew 24:36: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not omniscient, and furthermore, do not possess the same knowledge as the Father.


    Haydock comments that this is Christ speaking as a man, to dissuade other men from asking after forbidden knowledge. It does not mean that the Son, "through whom all things were made [necessarily including time itself]," doesn't have foreknowledge of the end times.


    Can you, by chance, provide a link to Haydock's essay/lecture about this matter?  I don't know where to begin, and time is short here for me.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Roland Deschain

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #4 on: March 31, 2012, 02:05:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    Many passages of Scripture, both Old and New, point to this reality. There is a point where human understanding ceases and we accept it because HE has revealed it.


    Could you, or anyone else, please provide which passages these are?  I honestly have never looked into this matter before.

    Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    3. It is written, in Matthew 24:36: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not omniscient, and furthermore, do not possess the same knowledge as the Father.


    Haydock comments that this is Christ speaking as a man, to dissuade other men from asking after forbidden knowledge. It does not mean that the Son, "through whom all things were made [necessarily including time itself]," doesn't have foreknowledge of the end times.


    Can you, by chance, provide a link to Haydock's essay/lecture about this matter?  I don't know where to begin, and time is short here for me.


    http://bible.org/article/trinity-triunity-god

    I believe this to be a protestant source but the historical and scriptural evidence provided is valuable.

    A pertinent excerpt from the article:

    "c. Diversity in operation
     
    In the functions ascribed to each of the Persons in the Godhead, especially in man’s redemption, it is clear that a certain degree of subordination is involved (in relation, though not in nature); the Father first, the Son second, the Spirit third. The Father works through the Son by the Spirit. Thus Christ can say: ‘My Father is greater than I.’ As the Son is sent by the Father, so the Spirit is sent by the Son. As it was the Son’s office to reveal the Father, so it is the Spirit’s office to reveal the Son, as Christ testified: ‘He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you’ (Jn. 16:14)."


    Offline Augstine Baker

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #5 on: March 31, 2012, 02:17:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    3. It is written, in Matthew 24:36: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not omniscient, and furthermore, do not possess the same knowledge as the Father.


    Haydock comments that this is Christ speaking as a man, to dissuade other men from asking after forbidden knowledge. It does not mean that the Son, "through whom all things were made [necessarily including time itself]," doesn't have foreknowledge of the end times.


    The Haydock commentaries are so vital to a proper understanding of these Catholic books with the mind of the Church.

    The modern bible commentaries omit these explanations entirely, leaving a modern Catholic to flop around and even rely an erroneous protestunt exigetes.


    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 02:36:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    3. It is written, in Matthew 24:36: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not omniscient, and furthermore, do not possess the same knowledge as the Father.


    Haydock comments that this is Christ speaking as a man, to dissuade other men from asking after forbidden knowledge. It does not mean that the Son, "through whom all things were made [necessarily including time itself]," doesn't have foreknowledge of the end times.


    The Haydock commentaries are so vital to a proper understanding of these Catholic books with the mind of the Church.

    The modern bible commentaries omit these explanations entirely, leaving a modern Catholic to flop around and even rely an erroneous protestunt exigetes.



    Yes, but does anyone have a link to a website to the Haydock commentaries?  
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Augstine Baker

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #7 on: March 31, 2012, 02:38:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    3. It is written, in Matthew 24:36: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not omniscient, and furthermore, do not possess the same knowledge as the Father.


    Haydock comments that this is Christ speaking as a man, to dissuade other men from asking after forbidden knowledge. It does not mean that the Son, "through whom all things were made [necessarily including time itself]," doesn't have foreknowledge of the end times.


    The Haydock commentaries are so vital to a proper understanding of these Catholic books with the mind of the Church.

    The modern bible commentaries omit these explanations entirely, leaving a modern Catholic to flop around and even rely an erroneous protestunt exigetes.



    Yes, but does anyone have a link to a website to the Haydock commentaries?  


    That's an excellent question.  I don't know.  I will check around and you may have to bite the bullet.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 01:43:11 PM »
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  • Offline Graham

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    « Reply #9 on: April 01, 2012, 06:17:16 PM »
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  • "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    I mean, what more is needed?

    If Jesus is not equal with the father, then we must not worship him, on pain of breaking the first commandment.


    Offline Nishant

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #10 on: April 02, 2012, 08:54:25 AM »
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  • Looks like Vox Day has now fully given his soul over to the enemy. This is hell-spawned heretical babbling.

    Excerpts from the Athanasian Creed, first explaining the true doctrine,
    Quote
    "Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic Faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.

    And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

    Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world.

    Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ.

    This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."


    Now, coming to the challenge of explaining this to a person with Protestant presuppositions.

    First, the verse cited. How can it be explained? St.Maximus responds "the humanity of the Lord , in as much as united to the Word, knew all things, and manifested things divinely suitable. But in as much as the human nature is thought of as not united with the divine, it is said not to know." In other words, Christ was merely saying He had assumed a true human nature like all of us, with all of the faculties proper to it, but perfectly and hypostatically united to the Word. Pope St.Gregory the great expounds the text in a similar manner, remarking that Our Lord knew it "in His humanity, but not from His humanity."

    The Saints and Fathers say that operations of intellect and will are proper to one's nature. Since in Christ there are two natures, there are two operations of intellect and will, the one human, the one divine. (The contrary opinion, Monothelitism "one will" is heretical). So Our Lord was by these words merely revealing that He did in fact have an operation of human intellect.

    Second, direct proof from Scripture that Our Lord after the Incarnation had an operation also of a divine omnisicent intellect. The confession of the Apostles (Jn 16:30) and especially that of St.Peter (Jn 21:17) is "Lord, you know all things". And Our Lord Himself tells us He searches the "minds and hearts" which no mere man can do (Rev 2:23)

    That should suffice to disprove the blasphemous heresy that there is something unknown to the Person of Christ.

    I'm afraid Vox Day has fallen to the temptation of intellectual pride. It's sad really, but that is the difference between the pride of private judgment, a Protestant principle, and the obedience of faith, which is the Catholic truth.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline Diego

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #11 on: April 02, 2012, 09:06:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Augstine Baker
    The modern bible commentaries omit these explanations entirely, leaving a modern Catholic to flop around and even rely an erroneous protest[a]nt exigetes.



    ...such as the incomplete converts and Marranos featured on EWTN.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 02:12:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant2011
    Looks like Vox Day has now fully given his soul over to the enemy. This is hell-spawned heretical babbling....

    ....I'm afraid Vox Day has fallen to the temptation of intellectual pride. It's sad really, but that is the difference between the pride of private judgment, a Protestant principle, and the obedience of faith, which is the Catholic truth.


    Yeah.  Nishan, I quoted you in the comments section, which I believe Vox is ignoring at this point.  

    The writing is on the wall now in regards to how Vox thinks.  

    Here's a comment that struck me:


    - - - -

    Freddy aka Manatee April 02, 2012 2:39 PM
    Vox's true theological colors have finally come out. Yes, all those Christians who had so much faith in Vox are now confronted with the fact that he is nothing more than a hairy-tick.

    All the cults share the same common faulty views of human reason and logic that Vox worships.

    Vox is a silly tool because he takes one verse and then attempts to prop up his heretical views without interpreting Scripture with Scripture. That Reformed hermenutic if violated will get those who worship their autonomous intellect in all sorts of trouble.

    Vox cares not to submit his theological beliefs for cross-examination with an organized orthodox Christian church because he is rogue and rebellious.

    God's condemnation on him will be warranted and will most assuredly come soon enough.

    And the Ilk here who have no backbone to call him out are worthy of the same fate.

    ----

    Not a word from Vox on most of the comments.  He'll probably disown all who disagree with him.

    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline CathMomof7

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #13 on: April 03, 2012, 02:47:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch



    3. It is written, in Matthew 24:36: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not omniscient, and furthermore, do not possess the same knowledge as the Father.



    This is a fallacy called "Begging the Question."  This person has concluded that his reasoning must be true, i.e. the Son and the Holy Ghost are not the Father, because the Scripture makes a statement he may or may not understand.  

    This fallacious argument leads to the fallacy of the "False Dilemma."  Since the Three Persons are not equal, then it must be true that they are not One Person.

    Quote
    4. Therefore, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not co-equal and consubstantial with the Father. They may or may not be co-eternal.

    5. Being neither co-equal nor consubstantial, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not one being with the Father.

    6. Therefore, God is one person, the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity is a false one.

    I further note that we can branch from (3) and prove the falsehood of the Trinity in a slightly different manner.

    4b. Since God is omniscient and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not, neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit are God.

    5b. Therefore, God is one person, the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity is a false one.



    There are probably more fallacies with this argument, but I don't really remember all of them!  These are just some of the common ones that people use all the time and they become the basis for all their beliefs.

    I am not a Theologian nor an incredibly intelligent person.  But it is not hard to point out fallacies in people's arguments.  An understanding of the Trinity is not really hard.  My kindergartener understands this is a rudimentary way.  St. Patrick used a shamrock as a visual aid to help the Irish grasp this Mystery.  It was good enough for them.

    I have explained the Trinity this way to my own children.  I am a mother, their mother, but I am also a daughter, and a wife.  I act, speak, behave, and think about things differently when I am mothering them, when I am engaging with my mother, and when I am being a good wife.  I do them all at the same time.  They get it and it's not confusing.

    Why then is the Blessed Trinity so confusing?  Because they can't allow themselves to think clearly and rationally.

    It's sad really, because a lot of people convince themselves of all sorts of things that just are not true.

    Offline Nishant

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    Blogger Vox Day disputes the Trinity
    « Reply #14 on: April 04, 2012, 06:16:06 AM »
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  • Laramie, you know, one of the things you see in Protestantism today, as with several ancient heresies, is to prefer the intellectual life to the spiritual life. It is only the logical outcome of a belief that refuses all living authority, and that submits to nought but one's own ever-changing private interpretation.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

     

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