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Author Topic: Baptized Catholic Protestants are Divorcees  (Read 5234 times)

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Offline Banezian

Re: Baptized Catholic Protestants are Divorcees
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2018, 01:42:31 PM »
Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 08, 2018, 01:36:46 PM
Every single last one of them is on the road to hell. Protestantism is a "gate of hell". That does not mean they can't change roads, however, the road they are on leads to hell.
Ridiculous. Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange notes
"Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. …If we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution"
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Offline forlorn

Re: Baptized Catholic Protestants are Divorcees
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2018, 04:08:47 PM »
Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 01:42:31 PM
Ridiculous. Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange notes
"Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. …If we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution"
By an act of contrition it says. To be contrite, one must know that one has done wrong in the first place and be sorry for it. Therefore, for one to be contrite about being a Protestant, they must realise that Protestantism is heresy and wish to abandon that heresy.

Only way around it I could see is a perfect act of contrition, such as martyrdom in the name of the Lord, whereby all sins are forgiven absolutely. Protestants being already baptised, could perhaps then be saved. Although not pagans or Jews.

Also I don't think there's a consensus at all that the great number of Catholics(let alone heretics!) are saved. More commonly I've heard that even most Catholics are damned, and surely even if heretics were saved it'd be much smaller proportion again who'd be saved.
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Offline Banezian

Re: Baptized Catholic Protestants are Divorcees
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2018, 04:22:06 PM »
Quote from: forlorn on June 08, 2018, 04:08:47 PM
By an act of contrition it says. To be contrite, one must know that one has done wrong in the first place and be sorry for it. Therefore, for one to be contrite about being a Protestant, they must realise that Protestantism is heresy and wish to abandon that heresy.

Only way around it I could see is a perfect act of contrition, such as martyrdom in the name of the Lord, whereby all sins are forgiven absolutely. Protestants being already baptised, could perhaps then be saved. Although not pagans or Jews.

Also I don't think there's a consensus at all that the great number of Catholics(let alone heretics!) are saved. More commonly I've heard that even most Catholics are damned, and surely even if heretics were saved it'd be much smaller proportion again who'd be saved.
Most Protestants are material heretics, not formal heretics. Material heretics are not culpable for their error. Anglicans, Lutherans, and Reformed(Calvinists)  have Acts of Contrition in their liturgy before death. That being said,  one who leaves the Church for Protestantism can not be saved. Garrigou was a prominent anti-Modernist theologian at the time. With all due respect, I think he had a better knowledge of the mind of the Church than you.

Another thing I wanted to point out for clarification. The vast majority of folks who call themselves "Protestant" today are not even Christians. When I speak of a Protestant, I am speaking of one who is validly baptized, and holds at least to the Nicene  Creed. A large swath of Evangelicals do not. To me, if one is not validly baptized or does not hold to the Nicene  Creed, they aren't even Christian.
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Offline forlorn

Re: Baptized Catholic Protestants are Divorcees
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2018, 05:00:49 PM »
Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 04:22:06 PM
Most Protestants are material heretics, not formal heretics. Material heretics are not culpable for their error. Anglicans, Lutherans, and Reformed(Calvinists)  have Acts of Contrition in their liturgy before death. That being said,  one who leaves the Church for Protestantism can not be saved. Garrigou was a prominent anti-Modernist theologian at the time. With all due respect, I think he had a better knowledge of the mind of the Church than you.

Another thing I wanted to point out for clarification. The vast majority of folks who call themselves "Protestant" today are not even Christians. When I speak of a Protestant, I am speaking of one who is validly baptized, and holds at least to the Nicene  Creed. A large swath of Evangelicals do not. To me, if one is not validly baptized or does not hold to the Nicene  Creed, they aren't even Christian.
Protestants are formal heretics, if they aren't then no one is. They're well aware they're going against the teaching of the Catholic Church, and most don't believe the concept of "Church" even matters and just go to whatever church they like the pastor of. Obviously they don't believe they're going against the teachings of the "true Church" which they believe the Catholic Church is not, but then every formal heretic thinks that. If they thought the Catholic Church was the true Church they wouldn't think it in error in the first place. 

And I'm well aware Garrigou had a better knowledge than me, but it's false to say there's a consensus in the Church that the majority of Christians, including heretics and schismatics, are saved. Many theologians, Doctors and Saints believed the majority of Catholics were damned.
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Offline Banezian

Re: Baptized Catholic Protestants are Divorcees
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2018, 05:09:45 PM »
Quote from: forlorn on June 08, 2018, 05:00:49 PM
Protestants are formal heretics, if they aren't then no one is. They're well aware they're going against the teaching of the Catholic Church, and most don't believe the concept of "Church" even matters and just go to whatever church they like the pastor of. Obviously they don't believe they're going against the teachings of the "true Church" which they believe the Catholic Church is not, but then every formal heretic thinks that. If they thought the Catholic Church was the true Church they wouldn't think it in error in the first place.

And I'm well aware Garrigou had a better knowledge than me, but it's false to say there's a consensus in the Church that the majority of Christians, including heretics and schismatics, are saved. Many theologians, Doctors and Saints believed the majority of Catholics were damned.
A few points.
1. With the state the Church is in today, a Protestant who looked at it negatively would not be totally wrong in his analysis. If all a Protestant sees of the Catholic Church is the Novus Ordo, I don't think he can be blamed for not entering it.
2. Most Protestants do not understand the teachings of the Church well enough to be called formal heretics. They are often plagued with misunderstandings about what the Church teaches, and it's only gotten much worse since Vatican 2
3. Most Confessional Protestants(Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc) do have a concept of the Church.
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