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Offline LordPhan

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Fisheaters
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2012, 12:08:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Sorry. I have to say that the sheepish tone of this thread on behalf of some CI posters is making me sick.

    Do you realize this entire topic is all being analyzed on a teenage level. This is the level at which a majority of the FE crowd operates. This is the level they want US to operate on and which all liberals operate on. Because if we do, they win.

    The tactic goes like this:


    She said something "mean" about us.

    Yeah, well he said something "mean" about her.

    Your website was "meaner" to her.

    No, your website was "meaner". You were "mean" 25 times, I was only "mean" 20 times.

    Ok we were both "mean" and sinned horribly. Let's say we were both wrong, hold hands, and skip together.

    Whew! You are right. Conflict is from the devil. I feel warm and fuzzy!  Let's sing. :guitar:



    Please don't play this game. The key is WHAT was said about the other forum.

    The criticism of FE on CI was based, in large part on facts, logic, the Faith, common sense.

    The criticism of CI on FE is, in large part, based on name-calling, mockery, and emotion.

    The FE mods' public relationship was a public fact that could be rightly criticized as it applies to the Church's moral teaching. The philosophical and theological and moral positions of the FE owner and her sychophants can be rightly dissected and criticized as compared to Catholic Tradition. The entire atmosphere of the FE forum, complete with immodest pictures and videos, praise of modern culture, immature posts is up for legitimate criticisms.

    What is the criticism of CI by the Fishies? That we're a bunch of kooks, nuts, tin-foil hatters, bigots, racists, homophobes, freaks, losers, "rejects", puritans, misogynists, and haters. That we are "mean-spirited", "angry", "intolerant", rash, stupid, knuckle-draggers, etc. etc.

    The very substance of their criticisms of us prove the very point we're trying to make. That they are a bunch of liberals! This is straight out the liberal playbook. Mock, ridicule, slander, intimidate your opponent into shutting up, and if he doesn't, then "ban" him. Silence him at any cost. The left cannot stand dissent. They stamp it out.

    There is nothing "mean" about pointing out the obvious contradictions at FE compared to Tradition or discussing said contradictions. What is "mean" and reprehensible is having the audacity to run a Traditional Catholic website while you publicly announce you, the site owners, are proudly going to be entering into a morally illicit relationship. Then, when you get justly criticized for it, you play the victim and demonize your enemies as "haters", "mean-spirited", "obsessed with sex", "perverts", "judgers."

    It is like they followed the Clinton playbook to a tee. He was caught perjuring himself, intimidating witnesses, having sex with an intern, lying to the public. Yet, he and his minions effectively demonized every one of his conservative critics, made himself into a victim of a "witch-hunt" and paid private investigators to dig up dirt on those impeaching him to intimidate and silence them. These are liberal tactics 101.

    Don't fall for their schtick. Use your brain! They will use any means to silence you: intimidation, banning, name calling, ridicule, emotional manipulation, guilt, God, twisting the Faith, you name it. Don't play their game. Stick to the facts, stand up for the truth, be relentless, be heard, fight back.



     :applause:

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #16 on: April 04, 2012, 12:16:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower
    There are so many threads here about FE that I find it hard to believe that the first time I see Vox say something negative about CI, she gets an "I'm disappointed in you" thread. It really comes off strange. I enjoy different elements of both places so this isn't about preferences. But THIS forum has a say-anything-nasty-about-FE-because-it-"needs"-to-be-discussed policy, so you would think that that "tolerance" would go both ways. CI can discuss them but they can't discuss you? I didn't like her post, I thought it was condescending and unfair but neither do I like many FE posts here either for the same reason. Like it or not, many of both places are in the same boat on this one.

    Having said that, I miss old FE too. I didn't even know it, but from the way people describe it I think I would miss it. I think there are still elements of it in the more serious areas like theology and philisophy.



    1. Unlike FE, every thread HERE doesn't have the Mod's implicit approval. In other words, censorship is almost non-existent here, regardless of a thread's topic. Yes, that includes FE threads.

    2. As Stevus pointed out, CI members tend to stick to specific, rational criticisms, pointing out specific moral issues that need to be addressed. FE "criticism" threads of CI tend to be emotional, name-calling rants full of exaggeration and personal opinion.

    3. Related to #1, you don't see me coming down hard on FE, at least during the past couple years -- basically since Quis visited here, posted a few times, and established a certain rapport. I tried to stay as neutral and "nice" as possible. But apparently Vox isn't on board.
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    Offline wallflower

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    « Reply #17 on: April 04, 2012, 01:07:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: wallflower
    There are so many threads here about FE that I find it hard to believe that the first time I see Vox say something negative about CI, she gets an "I'm disappointed in you" thread. It really comes off strange. I enjoy different elements of both places so this isn't about preferences. But THIS forum has a say-anything-nasty-about-FE-because-it-"needs"-to-be-discussed policy, so you would think that that "tolerance" would go both ways. CI can discuss them but they can't discuss you? I didn't like her post, I thought it was condescending and unfair but neither do I like many FE posts here either for the same reason. Like it or not, many of both places are in the same boat on this one.

    Having said that, I miss old FE too. I didn't even know it, but from the way people describe it I think I would miss it. I think there are still elements of it in the more serious areas like theology and philisophy.



    1. Unlike FE, every thread HERE doesn't have the Mod's implicit approval. In other words, censorship is almost non-existent here, regardless of a thread's topic. Yes, that includes FE threads.

    2. As Stevus pointed out, CI members tend to stick to specific, rational criticisms, pointing out specific moral issues that need to be addressed. FE "criticism" threads of CI tend to be emotional, name-calling rants full of exaggeration and personal opinion.

    3. Related to #1, you don't see me coming down hard on FE, at least during the past couple years -- basically since Quis visited here, posted a few times, and established a certain rapport. I tried to stay as neutral and "nice" as possible. But apparently Vox isn't on board.


    I agree with a lot of your and stevus' points, I'm not calling for "silencing" and I understand a lot of the differences being pointed out. I just don't understand the need to call them out for this specific reason.

    So they blanket CI as a bunch of kooks and many here blanket them as a bunch of liberals (putting it nicely). People can do all the rationalizing they want as to why they say what they say but the lack of charity does go both ways.

    stevus can point out the mean, meaner, meanest game and beg people not to play it but then goes on to play it himself to prove they really ARE meaner! It sounds great to make out CI's case out as being all Faith and common sense based, would that it were true!, but let's be real. I've read many posts here that are just as emotional and name-calling to FE as anything on FE to here. Blame it on the difference in moderation style if you will, the fact remains. I do agree that you all don't seem to go ruffle feathers over there for the fun of it, that's something I have noticed. But in the quality of posts about each other I am a little less inclined to agree.  

    Like I said talk about each other all you want, but then to object that the other is talking ... that's what doesn't sit right.

    I agree that as forum owners it would be nice if you and Vox could be more cordial, especially if you and Quis managed to be, it separates you as leaders instead of one of the bunch. And then it makes each poster's opinion truly their own, without reflecting badly on the owners. It's not good for you in your ownership and leadership positions to engage in it. But calling her out for not being cordial seems tit for tat to me. The truly moral high ground that CI claims to have would mean letting it go as an act of humility or contacting her privately, not starting a whole new thread to discuss how they discuss you and why your discussions are better.

    Just my two cents, which I probably should have kept to myself  :wink:

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #18 on: April 04, 2012, 01:27:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower

    I agree with a lot of your and stevus' points, I'm not calling for "silencing" and I understand a lot of the differences being pointed out. I just don't understand the need to call them out for this specific reason.

    So they blanket CI as a bunch of kooks and many here blanket them as a bunch of liberals (putting it nicely). People can do all the rationalizing they want as to why they say what they say but the lack of charity does go both ways.

    I agree that as forum owners it would be nice if you and Vox could be more cordial, especially if you and Quis managed to be, it separates you as leaders instead of one of the bunch. And then it makes each poster's opinion truly their own, without reflecting badly on the owners. It's not good for you in your ownership and leadership positions to engage in it. But calling her out for not being cordial seems tit for tat to me. The truly moral high ground that CI claims to have would mean letting it go as an act of humility or contacting her privately, not starting a whole new thread to discuss how they discuss you and why your discussions are better.


    You make some good points, and maybe you're right. I'm not perfect; it's hard to judge one's own actions objectively.

    It seems, though, that humility is something to be practiced by individuals. When you have two newspapers, whose reputations are at stake, and the editor of Newspaper A criticizes Newspaper B -- Newspaper B can't just go into a church and pray. Especially when Newspaper B is the better (or more Catholic) newspaper. If we were talking about Alice and Bob, then your advice would be spot-on! Only pride causes one to be bothered by criticism, humility should be practiced, don't always stick up for yourself, etc. That's all good advice for individuals.

    I notice that you chose the two words "kooks" and "liberals" when summing up the typical FE - CI "battle of words".

    "Kooks" is name-calling, plain and simple.

    "Liberals" is a descriptive adjective of those who espouse certain beliefs or practices. It could easily be used by those with no emotions, or at least those who never let their emotions show.

    By the way, it's not fair to judge CathInfo's discussion of FE, because most posts about FE on here are from members who JUST GOT BANNED from FE and are hardly favorable towards it.

    The negative posts on FE are totally different. They are usually without substance, mere emotional name-calling, and are done by long-standing FE members who haven't spent much time on CI at all.

    Remember, FE and CI are not peers. FE is much older than CI, and has several times the readership. Many CI members came from FE, but no FE members came from CI. So you can't judge things with the same scale.

    For example, if a FE members criticizes CI, they don't know what they're talking about, which is why most posts of this nature are emotional/name-calling. But if a CI member criticizes FE, they are probably going off personal experience, since they are a former member. So they might be inclined to state things matter-of-factly for the cause of truth.
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    Offline wallflower

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    « Reply #19 on: April 04, 2012, 01:39:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    It seems, though, that humility is something to be practiced by individuals. When you have two newspapers, whose reputations are at stake, and Newspaper A criticizes Newspaper B -- Newspaper B can't just go into a church and pray. Especially when Newspaper B is the better newspaper. If it were Alice and Bob, your advice would be spot-on! Humility, don't stick up for yourself, etc. and it would cause the person to grow in sanctity.

    I notice that you chose the two words "kooks" and "liberals" when summing up the typical FE - CI "battle of words".

    "Kooks" is name-calling, plain and simple.

    "Liberals" is a descriptive adjective of those who espouse certain beliefs or practices. It could easily be used by those with no emotions, or at least those who never let their emotions show.

    By the way, it's not fair to judge CathInfo's discussion of FE, because most posts about FE on here are from members who JUST GOT BANNED from FE and are hardly favorable towards it.

    The negative posts on FE are totally different. They are usually without substance, mere emotional name-calling, and are done by long-standing FE members who haven't spent much time on CI at all.


    This is true. If it was posted publicly by the other forum owner, maybe it needs to be addressed publicly too by this forum owner. It's not always easy to know what to do.

    And I do agree that most posts over there about CI are without substance whereas here, there are some members who try to keep it above-board and actually discuss the differences in ideas and atmosphere. Not all manage to keep it virtuous but some do and they are an example for the rest of us.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 02:05:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower
    stevus can point out the mean, meaner, meanest game and beg people not to play it but then goes on to play it himself to prove they really ARE meaner!


    Wallflower, you missed my point. "Mean" v. "meaner" was an example of the emotion based game they want to turn this into. The analysis on this thread is falling into the emotional child level where all criticisms = "being mean". That's the game they play. You were mean to me, I was mean to you (if they even admit that much) we were BOTH wrong, so let's move on and not criticize each other at all. So we at CI are in effect silenced by this devil's bargain, while they continue spewing their feminism, modernism, word-loving, errors with reckless abandon, while we sit here twiddling our thumbs. Then we are silenced. That is the game. That is what they want.

    I'm not saying FE is "meaner." What the Hell does "mean" even "mean"? It is an empty word based on subjective reactions to statements. Stating a truth elicits an angry reaction. Calling someone a name elicits an angry reaction. Because both acts elicited an angry reaction, were both acts "mean"? They are trying to play a sleight of mind game, hoping we don't spot the flaw in their premise.

    Quote
    It sounds great to make out CI's case out as being all Faith and common sense based, would that it were true!, but let's be real. I've read many posts here that are just as emotional and name-calling to FE as anything on FE to here. Blame it on the difference in moderation style if you will, the fact remains. I do agree that you all don't seem to go ruffle feathers over there for the fun of it, that's something I have noticed. But in the quality of posts about each other I am a little less inclined to agree.  


    This is why I said, "in large part." Am I going to say every single CI poster has never called FE people names? Of course not. But, you'd have to be blind to not see the overwhelming disparity in CI criticisms v. FE name calling.  We've had all sorts of CI threads discussing the theological, spiritual, moral, cultural, political reasons the FE forum has gone down the crapper. The FE criticisms of CI are the equivalent of a potty mouthed 12 year old ranting about a kid he hates.

    And even when CI posters are "name calling" the "name" is typically a description of a certain political, theological, or moral outlook many of the Fishies have. Matthew touched on this. We may call the Fishies liberals, modernists, worldlings, relativists, Neo-Trads, amoral, feminists. This is not what I'm talking about the left doing. The left's name calling are pure pejoratives meant to humiliate, embarass, intimidate, harass, and silence the opposition and they are 9 times out of 10 patently false, unsupportable, and based on blind anger.

    Quote
    Like I said talk about each other all you want, but then to object that the other is talking ... that's what doesn't sit right. It's not good for you in your ownership and leadership positions to engage in it. But calling her out for not being cordial seems tit for tat to me. The truly moral high ground that CI claims to have would mean letting it go as an act of humility or contacting her privately, not starting a whole new thread to discuss how they discuss you and why your discussions are better.


    I don't think he's calling her out for not being cordial. I think he's calling her out for being a hypocrite. CI doesn't have a rule not to bash other forums. FE does, put in place by none other than Vox. It is entirely appropriate to hold liberals up to their own standards. They are living contradictions and never obey their own rules. Their rules are to be applied selectively at their whim and to their enemies.

    If Vox wants to get rid of the rule and unleash the Fishies to spew their hate at CI, go for it! We'll expose each one of them in their own words. She'll never do it because she doesn't want that. In a war of ideas they lose. She wants US to shut up and leave them alone so they can (intentionally or not) keep infecting more and more minds with a false impression of Tradition through their forum with no resistance. Some here are buying into this game. False guilt can be a very effective weapon to shut someone up. Just ask the VCII Prelates who have played on the natural virtue of conservative clerics to shut them up. Meanwhile souls pour to Hell because the false guilt was a trick and they fell for it. They should have been exposing the errors from the rooftops. This is what CI needs to be doing, every time, all the time, no matter if it is FE, CAF, AQ, or even modernists on our own forum.

    Online alaric

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    « Reply #21 on: April 05, 2012, 06:17:30 AM »
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  • "The very substance of their criticisms of us prove the very point we're trying to make. That they are a bunch of liberals! This is straight out the liberal playbook. Mock, ridicule, slander, intimidate your opponent into shutting up, and if he doesn't, then "ban" him. Silence him at any cost. The left cannot stand dissent. They stamp it out. "-StevusMagnus

    Well said.

    Liberals and the left hate any kind of dissent from the status quo. Silencing the opposition has always been their MO from the beginning that's why the first thing they do is control the flow of information (Media) and transference of any kind of critical thought or analysis of their left wing propaganda. And their biggest weapon is labels, they love to attack by labeling those whom might be a threat to them.

    Labels like "hater" or "bigot" or "racist" and "antisemite".

    Did you ever notice the endless thesaurus the left has in slandering the opposition instead of debating the issue at hand? It never comes down to logic or reason, it's always emotion and self-righteousness, it's never staying on topic but how evil you are for opposing them to begin with. They're not interested in things like facts and reality, it's all about you being "hateful" and uncharitable.

    Or in Stevus case, a meanie.

    Stevusthemeanus.