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Author Topic: ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch  (Read 1255 times)

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Offline reconquest

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ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch
« on: August 17, 2013, 04:28:28 PM »
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  • Do you think that getting married at 20 with little financial support amounts to messing up your life?
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani


    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch
    « Reply #1 on: August 17, 2013, 04:46:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: reconquest
    Do you think that getting married at 20 with little financial support amounts to messing up your life?


    Messing up your life?  

    Tricky question.  

    Myself: If I could go back in time, I would have met my wife at the age of 17, married her at age 18, rushed myself through school and started having kids right away.  But that's my dream.


    Messing up your life?  Well, if you have an educational plan laid out for yourself--such as becoming a doctor or engineer or something like that--then you should really see that through.  Those jobs really would set you up as a family man, and you shouldn't squander that effort.  

    If you have a sweetheart and she's a good woman, I'd say keep her and work your way through the tough times of your education.  If she truly loves you--and is a devoted wife who is responsible and accepts wifely responsibility--it'll work out and she'll understand the hard times.  

    If you're goofing off with an English degree, History degree, Music or something frivolous, then put your careerist dream on the backburner.  Get a steady job, marry the woman, and find a better career path as you go along.  That's a bit of a rough road--especially since you are financially independent--but such is life, isn't it?


    - - - -

    If you try to get educated, get the right job for you, and finally settle down when you're 30, then you'll be having kids a little late.  Just think, if you have a child when you are 40, you won't see that child in their 20s until you are 60 years old.  

    Back in the good old days, if you started having kids at the age of 15 (and your children followed suit), you would be a grandfather by your late thirties.  


    - - -  -

    However, get your adventuring out of your system before marriage.  Travel to big cities or mountains or whatever traveling you need to do.  Once you're married and responsibility creeps in, your opportunity to see the world diminish.  So keep that in mind, too.  

    I did that, and I'm glad I did.  I've seen a lot of this country before I got married.  It's difficult to even leave the state for a vacation anymore.  Family needs precede everything else.  
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch
    « Reply #2 on: August 17, 2013, 08:07:43 PM »
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  • +A.M.D.G.+

    First hand, I do not think age is the issue.  
    Maturity and understanding of the Sacrament, for me, would be more of a pre-requisite to entering onto such a sacred union.
    Most importantly, love of God and a deep desire to follow Him.
    The graces a couple would receive within the Sacrament are also of great consideration.  
    Being married has brought so much grace and sanctity to our lives that it would be difficult for me to discourage it.  
    Myself being married at 23 and about to have our 10th child, I would not have traded a second of it for more time outside of marriage.
    Studies can be pursued within the state of marriage, working 2 jobs, starting a business, losing a job, gaining a job, failing in business, starting a new one, going through all sorts of trials, it was all worth going through because we went through it together, with the goal of seeing it through together, and reaching our goal of Heaven for each other and our children.
    Actually, going through life's ups and downs were, IMHO, much easier to endure because we had each other.


    Offline Graham

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    ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch
    « Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 09:13:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy

    Studies can be pursued within the state of marriage, working 2 jobs, starting a business, losing a job, gaining a job, failing in business, starting a new one, going through all sorts of trials, it was all worth going through because we went through it together, with the goal of seeing it through together, and reaching our goal of Heaven for each other and our children.

    Actually, going through life's ups and downs were, IMHO, much easier to endure because we had each other.


    Great post. I am not ggreg, I am not married yet, and I am rather older than 20, but this is the way I see it. Sadly it seems that the majority of traditionalists do not see it like this.


    Offline poche

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    ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch
    « Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 11:17:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: reconquest
    Do you think that getting married at 20 with little financial support amounts to messing up your life?

    Do you have someone particular in mind or are you just curious?


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch
    « Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 12:03:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    Most importantly, love of God and a deep desire to follow Him.

    [...]

    Being married has brought so much grace and sanctity to our lives that it would be difficult for me to discourage it.
     
    Myself being married at 23 and about to have our 10th child, I would not have traded a second of it for more time outside of marriage.

    Studies can be pursued within the state of marriage, working 2 jobs, starting a business, losing a job, gaining a job, failing in business, starting a new one, going through all sorts of trials, it was all worth going through because we went through it together, with the goal of seeing it through together, and reaching our goal of Heaven for each other and our children.

    Actually, going through life's ups and downs were, IMHO, much easier to endure because we had each other.


    This is so beautiful. Thank you very much for this edifying post!

    This post immediately brought an image to my mind.

    It made me think that in sacred matrimony, a husband and the woman whom he takes as his wife are as two mirrors; facing each other and mutually reflecting the effulgence of holy grace and multiplying it again and again. The husband and his wife are placed together by Divine Providence and the light is the grace of God which has brought them together, having predestinated them one for another from all eternity out of the excess of His infinite love and the elegance of His unfathomable wisdom. The reflections they mutually reproduce as the mirrors face are literally the children born from the sacred nuptials, and at another level all the people whom the family edifies by word and example.

    That makes me think of something else.

    Christendom can be restored by one man who takes a woman for his wife in holy matrimony and establishes a Christian household, and together with her engenders and rears children unto God and His Church. Just one hallowed and worthy matrimony can begin the process of restoration of both Church and society.

    Going back to the illustration of the mirrors. If two mirrors can produce innumerable mirrors in their reflections, and, in turn, these reflect and illumine other mirrors, only to go on to fill everything with the refulgence of divine grace: then the darkness that oppresses us at the individual and social level will soon be dissipated and the forces of anti-Christendom conquered.

    It only took one man and one woman to begin the human race and to condemn it to damnation. It behooved one God-Man (Our Lord Jesus Christ) and one immaculate Virgin (His ever-blessed Mother) to redeem and elevate this same human race. So it would only take one man and the one woman whom he shall take as his wife to correspond with grace to such a degree so that the process of restoration can begin.

    Nothing worthwhile is effortless. Certainly the destruction of Christendom that we are witnessing was not effortless. It is only fitting that a man, together with the woman whom he shall take as his wife, prepare for the heroic work of restoration: and to claim back the household, society and fatherland for Christ the King with a fortitude and prudence that outstrips the perfidious audacity and cunning of those who have manufactured and implemented the machinery of anti-Christ.


    EDIT: This is my 3,200th post!
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline ggreg

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    ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch
    « Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 02:45:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: reconquest
    Do you think that getting married at 20 with little financial support amounts to messing up your life?


    Define "little financial support".

    If you marry, you are likely to have children.  You have to consummate your marriage and it is unhealthy in your early 20s to not be having sex at least several times per month for most couples, most of the time.  People should not be having 3 children by 25 and then a Josephite marriage until their wife hits the menopause because they genuinely cannot afford a larger family.  That is unnatural and unhealthy in 99.9 percent of circuмstances. It is likely to lead to all sorts of problems which will either give you an unhappy marriage or a broken marriage.  Those two outcomes are messing up your life.

    So children will come along at about the rate of one every two years in your 20s and one every 3 years in your 30s.

    So, if at 20 you are qualified as a lawyer or an ambulance driver or medical technician and have debts that need to be paid then no.  It is a reasonable risk to take.  Over the next five years you are likely to be able to pay those debts and have enough to support a fast growing family.

    You don't need luxuries, but you do need things like a home, the financial capacity to pay the rent or mortgage, a car to move little babies and young children around.  Public transport is not really feasible unless you live in the middle of a major metropolis.

    You also have to consider your family situation.  Would or COULD your inlaws or parents of a wealthy brother or sister come to your aid if you were going to be evicted from your home? Do you live in a welfare state that has a safety net?  What would living at that safety net level be like?

    How entrepreneurial and flexible with what work you would do are you?  How good are you at selling yourself into a new job are you?  Could you walk into a taxi firm and convince the boss to give you a try and then become his most relible driver? Could you be a taxi driver and work the hardest shifts that pay the best rates?  Are you a sensitive and/or over scrupulous person that would have a problem picking up a hooker at 2am and driving her, too or from, what you imagined was probably work?  Taxi drivers have to do this sort of stuff.  It's not purely drive white middle class churchgoers around.  What would you do when he called you in a desperate state and asked you to drive on Sunday?

    There are cheaper and more expensive places to live.  There are places with better options for getting to Mass.  But if you move to Texas because it is cheaper, and have no extended family support then who comes over to help your wife when she has three children under five or one that is severely mentally handicapped.  Your mother in law can only help if she is within travelling distance.  Does your girlfriend's family appear willing and ready to help?

    In short, your question is badly thought through.  Nothing amounts to messing up your life because we don't know the future.  There are known risks and unknown risks.  There are unknown risks you know you don't know and there are unknown risks that you have not even thought about.

    If you go hiking in the Klondike and take a small back-pack and a bar of Chocolate, a print out from Google maps and a compass you got in a Christmas cracker are you being prudent?  Probably no, but it would depend on other factors.  If you are Ray Mears or Bear Grills, then probably it is OK.  If you are some idealistic fool like that kid in the movie Into the Wild who finds an abandonned bus in Alaska and dies there then you are stupid.

    The answer therefore is to think about it, ask the experience of married people you know and trust, find out what degree of support they had from inlaws etc.  Consider the nature of the woman you are marrying and how poor she is likely to consider "too poor".  Most Trad women would put up with a 10 year old reliable and respectable car, maintained by you but they won't want to eat rice for a week because your family car needs a new clutch or engine replacement.  They won't want their children looking shabby and have people look down at them for being poor and having too many children and due to the nature of Traditionalism and being split up it is unlikely that all your family friends will be Traditional Catholics.  In short one financial crisis every ten years is acceptable, but lurching from one crisis to the next or asking her to wash clothes by hand or walk 2 miles to the laundrette every time the washing machine breaks and you cannot afford to have it repaired till the Pay Day after next, because your clutch needs fixing is taking an unacceptably high risk of your marriage being an unhappy one.  In my experience, women tend to respect their husband for being a good father to their children, (playing, entertaining, disciplining them), providing financial support (bringing home the bacon) and being faithful and loyal to them and them only.

    So there is no simple answer.  It depends a lot on who you marry and many other factors, only some of which are mentioned above.  It also depends on who you are, how street smart you are, how prudent you are, how mentally well balanced you are.  The long and the short of it, is if you marry a middle class white trad girl who has grown up in a safe white neighbourhood then almost certainly she is going to want the same thing for her family.  You will have to compete for housing, groceries and utilities with contracepting couples, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, singletons while having far more than the average number of children.  To take a low risk path, that will require you to out earn the average person, or, find a wife that is content being much poorer than she was growing up.

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    ATTN: ggreg and LaramieHirsch
    « Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 02:41:29 PM »
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  • Thank you, LaramieHirsch, ggreg, Hobbledehoy, and holysoulsacademy for all the great advice!
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)