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Offline Marlelar

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Archbishop Thuc
« on: July 27, 2012, 09:00:57 PM »
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  • Could someone give me a thumbnail sketch of the Thuc "controversy"?  I've been reading bits and pieces and don't quite get the whole picture.  He seems quite controversial and I'm not sure what to believe.

    Thanks,
    Marsha

    Offline Sede Catholic

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #1 on: July 27, 2012, 09:04:31 PM »
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  • He was a great man.
    He did more to preserve the Faith than can be easily put into words.
    He has helped to preserve the Apostolic Succession.
    He has given us VALID traditional Catholic Bishops and priests.



    Offline Sede Catholic

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #2 on: July 27, 2012, 09:05:54 PM »
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  • His detractors are scum.

    Offline Sigismund

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #3 on: July 27, 2012, 10:17:56 PM »
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  • He was an emotionally wounded and unstable bishop who couldn't seem to make up his mind where he stood.  I don't doubt his sincerity or personal decency, and there is no reason to question the validity of his sacramental actions.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline catherineofsiena

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 10:49:37 PM »
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  • My sede friend knows a great deal about this line.  Hopefully I'll get this right. Based on what he has explained to me, Archbishop Thuc's brother was murdered by the communists in Vietnam.  He fled to France.  I think he eventually died in the U.S under questionable circumstances.  His lineage is viewed as valid by Rome.  There is a letter floating around from the early 80s from Rome begging Archbishop Thuc to stop the consecrations.  That may be the same letter excommunicating him and I think Cardinal Ratzinger was the author.

    Archbishop Thuc's view was similar to Archbishop Lefebvre, that Rome had lost the Faith and emergency measures were necessary.  His mental status was questioned with the last consecration but it's valid.  Like the Puerto Rican bishop who consecrated the SSPV Kelly, he was emotionally torn by what he had to do.
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31


    Offline Sigismund

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 08:13:05 AM »
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  • I want to make it clear, as I did not above, that I am not blaming Archbishop Thuc for his apparent emotional and mental instability.  He had suffered terribly, and this suffering took an understandable toll.  I am absolutely not questioning his character.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Vladimir

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 11:25:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: catherineofsiena
    My sede friend knows a great deal about this line.  Hopefully I'll get this right. Based on what he has explained to me, Archbishop Thuc's brother was murdered by the communists in Vietnam.  He fled to France.  I think he eventually died in the U.S under questionable circumstances.  His lineage is viewed as valid by Rome.  There is a letter floating around from the early 80s from Rome begging Archbishop Thuc to stop the consecrations.  That may be the same letter excommunicating him and I think Cardinal Ratzinger was the author.

    Archbishop Thuc's view was similar to Archbishop Lefebvre, that Rome had lost the Faith and emergency measures were necessary.  His mental status was questioned with the last consecration but it's valid.  Like the Puerto Rican bishop who consecrated the SSPV Kelly, he was emotionally torn by what he had to do.


    His brother was Ngo Dinh Diem, president of South Vietnam. Two of his brothers were assassinated by Communist - Ngo Dinh Diem and Ngo Dinh Nhu.

    Some say that Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc was abducted and brainwashed by Vietnamese Novus Ordo priests in America, or that he was abducted and silenced by the same. He is buried in Carthage, Missouri at a Vietnamese novus ordo monastery.



    Offline brotherfrancis75

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 12:52:28 PM »
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  • The hard truth is that with the apparently probable assimilation of the SSPX episcopal lineage into the horrific apostate Novus Ordo due to blind obedience to the unworthy Bishop Fellay, soon almost the only valid sacraments that will be available to Roman Catholics may well be through the apostolic successions provided for us from this GREAT MARTYR of the faith.  Perhaps apart from Bishop Kelly of the SSPV, these may be the ONLY such valid continuations of the holy sacraments instituted by Our Lord while He was still personally with us on earth.

    The true silver lining in this terribly dark picture is that during his Pontificate His Holiness Pius XII taught us that our Marian devotions and spirituality constitutes a source of graces fully comparable with and equal to the Catholic sacramental economy itself.  As we have become increasingly deprived of access to the true sacraments, the Blessed Virgin has acted to fill the spiritual vacuum so created -- to be sure primarily due to direct and flagrant acts of violence against Holy Church by certain governments that have gone by the name "the Allied Powers."  To make a long story short, basically the K.G.B. murdered Pope Pius XII, the K.G.B. and C.I.A. together with great violence behind the scenes imposed Paul VI on the Church  and then the C.I.A. orchestrated the murder of John Paul I.

    The heroic brother of the martyred President Ngo Dinh Diem of Viet Nam, Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc of Hue, Viet Nam, has provided us our "lifeboat" through the stormy seas created by that nightmarish and  most lamentable Allied victory at the end of WWII.  With great violence those Allied Powers murdered two great Catholic Popes, brutally destroyed the Catholic episcopacy world-wide in the 1960s and shamelessly suppressed our religion across the world, while today so many ex-Catholic apostates shamelessly grovel in gratitude to those same Powers and governments with most unjustified joy at their alleged "Liberation" by those same execrable Marxist savages.

    May God Bless the good Archbishop Thuc!  Alongside the Blessed Ever-Virgin Mother of God, he has been the only reliable provider of sanctifying grace to the besieged City of God on earth, our Holy Mother, the Divine Church of Eternal Rome.


    Offline Nishant

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 07:54:20 PM »
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  • Archbishop Thuc's formal letter declaring the vacancy of the Holy See contains a rather elementary theological error, amusing in the final analysis. It considers Pope John XXIII a non-Pope but still refers to its promulgator as "Archbishop Thuc" (a titular dignity conferred by none other than the said non-Pope), it is remarkable that such an important declaration (at least in the eyes of its promulgator) would contain so basic an error especially if this were really the work of God.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Marlelar

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 08:15:30 PM »
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  • Thanks everyone, I see the preponderance of replies are in support of him.

    Marsha

    Offline brotherfrancis75

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #10 on: July 29, 2012, 11:11:29 AM »
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  • @ Marlelar:  You are most welcome.

    @Nishant2011:  Although I'm only an unworthy defender of the reputation of the saintly Archbishop Thuc, I feel compelled to do what little I can to uphold his sacred honor.  I fear that your somewhat too clever effort to besmirch his memory reveals the errors so typical of oversimplifications.  Why can't it be entirely possible both for John XXIII to have at one time been a legitimate Pope and then later on to have ceased to be one?  As you probably know, John XXIII is the most complicated and difficult Bishop of Rome to categorise in the first place, so extra care should be taken when the good Archbishop Thuc referred to him.

    The most accurate explanation I can come up with to explain John XXIII does justify Archbishop Thuc's references to him.  It is simply that perhaps John XXIII was that peculiar thing we call a "private heretic."  He had heretical sympathies with the dangerous Italian early modernist Deist and Radical Liberal Antonio Rosmini that were strictly private and therefore quite consistently never revealed in public.  Therefore it is entirely possible and Catholic to suppose that the Pontificate of John XXIII may have been legitimate if such were the case.  Needless to say, this would then already be a case much more difficult for us to deal with than anything involving even the most controversial previous Popes like Liberius or Alexander VI.

    If my theory should be correct, then John XXIII could easily have gone into a PUBLIC heresy perhaps beginning with his opening speech to the alleged "Second" Vatical Council in October 1962 (presuming there actually ever were such a legitimate Ecumenical Council, of course).  That presumably heretical speech is said to have been written by that Communist abomination and Soviet agent Montini who later went by the name of "Paul VI" and my sense is that at that time John XXIII passed over into PUBLIC heresy and thereby ceased to be the legal and legitimate Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.

    This view is entirely possible and consistent with Catholic theology so it's inconvenience and high degree of complexity does not by any means rule it out as something that could occur by God's forbearance.  That would also leave us with precisely the complex situation that the good Archbishop referred to in his famous Letter of 1982:  with the legality of John XXIII's acts from before October 1962 and the illegality of his acts after that date.  But if this isn't complicated enough for us, it may also be that perhaps the Pontificate of John XXIII actually passed over into true public heresy only perhaps in March 1963 when the wicked Montini (the soon-to-be usurper Anti-Pope Paul VI) actually violently took over the Vatican from its legal occupants with massive assistance from the Soviet K.G.B. of that time.

    At any rate, at some point from about October 1962 to March 1963 the Bolsheviks took over the Vatican and the Papacy was usurped.  If so, then the non-mutilated Missal of 1962 would be legal and valid, yet the last acts of John XXIII would not be.  And we would be in the difficult position of having to tolerate considerable confusion among sincere Catholics about the Pontificate (or non-Pontificate) of John XXIII because that specific time in our Church history is indeed singularly confusing!

    Be this as it may, my explanation then would fully justify the later position of the saintly martyr to the faith Archbishop Thuc of Hue, Viet Nam.  Whether we happen to fully agree with this view of Church history or prefer some other view of those uniquely confusing times, we should charitably give the late Archbishop Thuc some slack and not cast all-too-easy aspersions against him from, so to speak, the "peanut gallery" of our own later historical hindsight.  Whatever the exact historical truth may be about John XXIII, we ought to go easy on Archbishop's Thuc's awesomely brave and courageous efforts to save the most holy apostolic succession of our beloved Holy Mother Church!!

    (The other side of this is that we should be saving our brickbats to throw against the villainous Paul VI, not against the saintly Archbishop Thuc.)

    So I've now done my small part to defend the sacred memory of the late Archbishop and his legacy.  Therefore I must now respectfully desist and say no more on this thread...


    Offline VeraeFidei

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 08:54:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: brotherfrancis75
    soon almost the only valid sacraments that will be available to Roman Catholics may well be through the apostolic successions provided for us from this GREAT MARTYR of the faith.  Perhaps apart from Bishop Kelly of the SSPV, these may be the ONLY such valid continuations of the holy sacraments instituted by Our Lord while He was still personally with us on earth.



    What about Eastern-Rite Catholics?

    Offline brotherfrancis75

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 01:59:24 AM »
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  • @VeraeFidei:

    It seems apostasy affects the Eastern Church much like it affects the Western Church.  A prominent valid Roman Catholic episcopacy among the Greek Catholics is the world-wide Greek-Rite Byzantine Catholic Patriarchate headquartered in the Ukraine.  One web address among several where you can learn about them in English is the following:  

    vkpatriarhat.org.ua

    In general sacramental validity by itself when abandoned among heretical clergy does not convey any reliability that divine grace is available to the recipients of those sacraments.  Heresy or apostasy normally shut off the economy of grace even in juridically valid sacraments that are therefore little more than something like the ancient Jerusalem Temple vessels that were once dragged around the Holy Land by some drunken Philistines.  Such stolen sacraments are normally little more effective for us than they once were for those long ago riotous Philistine warriors.  And sacraments abandoned among outright Marxist apostates like the Novus Ordo rarely remain valid for long in any event.

    As is sometimes noted, God is not mocked.  His delight is to be among the children of men, which is to say, among the many sons and daughters of the one true Church of Eternal Rome.




    Offline Malleus 01

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    Archbishop Thuc
    « Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 02:43:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Thanks everyone, I see the preponderance of replies are in support of him.

    Marsha


    http://www.dailycatholic.org/jul26ttt.htm

     

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