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Author Topic: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery  (Read 4984 times)

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Offline St Paul

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Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2019, 07:23:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on February 08, 2019, 09:08:16 PM
    "If the couple truly thought themselves to be really and truly married at the time of the birth of their children" then in all probability they were really and truly married, and so would not justly be applying for annulment. I know a couple who were already grandparents, where the woman, after over 30 years of marriage, applied for annulment, thus declaring all her 8 children bastards. No shame!
    I suspect that is why there is a council that reviews annulments, to examine all the details.  
    Let those without sin cast the first stone.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #31 on: February 09, 2019, 07:35:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on February 09, 2019, 06:51:43 AM
    "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven."


    Since the Church's power to loose and bind doesn't apply to these annulments apparently, and somehow also the Church which the gates of Hell shall not prevail against can lead people there.
    What is this, private interpretation of Scripture? Because the Catholic interpretation of "binding and loosing" is the power the priests have to forgive sins. 
    They are not talking about dissolving marriage bonds which exist! In fact, the Church doesn't bind the couple together either. The couple confer the sacrament on each other. The priest is only a witness for the Church.
    The role the Church plays in annulments is to DETERMINE whether or not a marriage took place. If it did, there is nothing the Pope can do about it. If it didn't, the Church can only say that no marriage took place. 
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    Offline St Paul

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #32 on: February 09, 2019, 09:11:35 AM »
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    • Quote
    Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.
    - J.R.R. Tolkien
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #33 on: February 09, 2019, 10:40:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 08, 2019, 06:55:53 PM
      There was one guy who had got an annulment in an Eastern Rite church.  He was married to this woman for 20 years.  They had several children.  ……..

    But I think that in the external forum we have to treat them as if they're legitimately married and not living in sin.  So, for instance, if I were a priest I would not refuse them Holy Communion.  But I might admonish them in private to really search their conscience.
    Because practically all annulments today are counterfeit, if in private they tell you that they have an annulment, you need to ask them what the circuмstances were and advise them. You need to do that to help save their soul. What they do with that is their problem, you have done your job. What has happened to me every time is that they say they have an annulment in a crowd, and don't elaborate further, so I do not ask. It's just that it always catches me by surprise. I think from now on I will ask anyways. 
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #34 on: February 09, 2019, 10:42:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: St Paul on February 09, 2019, 09:11:35 AM
    Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.

    - J.R.R. Tolkien
    What does that mean to you regarding the OP? I don't see the connection.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #35 on: February 09, 2019, 11:34:00 AM »
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    • Here's an interesting debate that took place in the late 80's/early 90's between Fr. Wathen and some Novus Ordo "theologians".

    This is only the first part, but some might find the debate helpful/useful.



    The other parts of the debate are also posted on YouTube
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    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #36 on: February 09, 2019, 12:51:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on February 08, 2019, 10:43:02 PM
    They're wrong though. Even if the priest didn't have jurisdiction that doesn't mean you just divorce the couple and pretend the whole thing doesn't happen. In normal times, such marriages would be convalidated by proper authorities. 
    If the people want to stay together, sure, an invalid marriage can be validated. 

    But if their marriage is invalid and they're not going to stay together, it wouldn't be wise to validate the marriage.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #37 on: February 09, 2019, 12:58:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 09, 2019, 12:51:11 PM
    If the people want to stay together, sure, an invalid marriage can be validated.

    But if their marriage is invalid and they're not going to stay together, it wouldn't be wise to validate the marriage.
    But don't you get it?
    The Church should always be thinking "marriage is permanent" by default. The natural law says that marriage is for life. The Church has a distinct preference. It's not "flip a coin" or "whatever the couple wants". The Church should strongly urge the couple to have their message convalidated and continue living together as husband and wife.
    That's my point: the modern Church has adopted the disposable marriage, cheap divorce, modern mentality.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #38 on: February 09, 2019, 01:29:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on February 09, 2019, 12:58:17 PM
    But don't you get it?
    The Church should always be thinking "marriage is permanent" by default. The natural law says that marriage is for life. The Church has a distinct preference. It's not "flip a coin" or "whatever the couple wants". The Church should strongly urge the couple to have their message convalidated and continue living together as husband and wife.
    That's my point: the modern Church has adopted the disposable marriage, cheap divorce, modern mentality.
    If they're separated and have no intention of reuiniting, validating a marriage that doesn't exist would be imprudent.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #39 on: February 09, 2019, 01:30:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 09, 2019, 10:40:10 AM
    Because practically all annulments today are counterfeit, if in private they tell you that they have an annulment, you need to ask them what the circuмstances were and advise them. You need to do that to help save their soul. What they do with that is their problem, you have done your job. 
    I've been the recipient of unsolicited "advice" of this sort before. 

    Years ago, one of my uncles married a divorced woman. Someone in my church, with no real theological training, just had to tell me that my uncle was living in sin in an invalid marriage and I should do something about it.

    Of course this person didn't know the circuмstances, and may have committed rash judgment. Unless information about marriage history comes about naturally, perhaps let the priests and/or knowledgable family members deal with it. 

    The one good thing this busybody did was not talk directly to my uncle, who was just starting to come to the trad church, or he might have never darkened that door again.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #40 on: February 09, 2019, 01:49:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 09, 2019, 01:29:10 PM
    If they're separated and have no intention of reuiniting, validating a marriage that doesn't exist would be imprudent.

    You're not getting it.

    They were probably married for years, probably have kid(s), and they should be convinced to reunite. Just because there was a flaw in their original marriage vows doesn't mean they haven't been making use of the marriage debt, forming strong emotional/psychological bonds with each other, having children and forming 2-way bonds there, etc.

    Hearing that a couple "separated and have no intention of reuniting" doesn't cause us to bat an eye nowadays -- heck, that eventually happens to ALMOST EVERYONE's first marriage, right? That's the one you make mistakes on when you're young. Usually your first marriage just lasts about 5-15 years. Then, when you're more mature, you get divorced and end up finding  someone better for you, right?

    That's the modern, pagan, godless world talking.

    A couple separated with no intention of reuniting should be a rare tragedy -- and the Church should be thinking in those terms. They should react to divorce like a man from 1850, when divorce was scandalous and rare. A Catholic Church official should be a relic, a fossil, a dinosaur, a blast from the ancient past in this regard.

    Now do you get it?
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #41 on: February 09, 2019, 03:07:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on February 09, 2019, 06:05:40 AM
    Children of annulled marriages aren't considered bastards.
    Children born to the unmarried are known to be bastards.
    N.B. An annulled "marriage" is NOT a marriage.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #42 on: February 09, 2019, 04:30:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on February 09, 2019, 01:30:06 PM
    The one good thing this busybody did was not talk directly to my uncle, who was just starting to come to the trad church, or he might have never darkened that door again.

    Yeah, the old Bergoglio approach ... let grave sin slide, and accept it, in the interests of not turning people away.  That never works out well.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #43 on: February 09, 2019, 04:50:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 09, 2019, 04:30:08 PM
    Yeah, the old Bergoglio approach ... let grave sin slide, and accept it, in the interests of not turning people away.  That never works out well.
    Interesting: do you endorse rash judgment about grave sin?
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #44 on: February 09, 2019, 06:43:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on February 09, 2019, 03:07:33 PM
    Children born to the unmarried are known to be bastards.
    N.B. An annulled "marriage" is NOT a marriage.
    They weren't considered bastards even in medieval times, when they were far more strict about that sort of thing and the issue of whether or not a child was a bastard was even more important. 
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