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Author Topic: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery  (Read 4978 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
« on: February 08, 2019, 09:03:01 AM »
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    • I'm really surprised at the amount of married trads that have annulments. All of them without exception when they tell me that they have an annulment, never give one word of explanation. In the 1950's there were like 35 annulments a year worldwide, after Vatican II the numbers reached as high as 70,000 JUST IN THE USA! I do not believe that any of those annulments 70,000 annulments are valid, but even traditionalist play that game with God.

    Couples remarried with annulments, BE WARNED - If you die without time to repent of your adultery, you will go to Hell. Open your eyes, separate from your false marriage and dedicate your life to the service of God rather than your partner.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #1 on: February 08, 2019, 09:08:59 AM »
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    • Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)



    Death bed conversions, repentance, - there are hardly any:   Out of 100,000 sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely ONE will be saved. (St. Jerome)
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #2 on: February 08, 2019, 01:08:43 PM »
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    • If the Church annuls and re-marries you then presumeably it is not adultery.

    Otherwise the power to bind and loose is a joke.  The Church itself would be co-operating in your sin.

    What is the point in having a Church, if you have to second guess its decisions and authorisations?

    That isn't a divine institution, it is a joke and Luther was essentially correct in that case.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #3 on: February 08, 2019, 01:14:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: ggreg on February 08, 2019, 01:08:43 PM
    If the Church annuls and re-marries you then presumeably it is not adultery.

    Otherwise the power to bind and loose is a joke.  The Church itself would be co-operating in your sin.

    What is the point in having a Church, if you have to second guess its decisions and authorisations?

    That isn't a divine institution, it is a joke and Luther was essentially correct in that case.
    Agreed.

    Just can't confuse the Conciliar church who, in it's history, demonstratively has no desire at all to preserve the matrimonial bond, with the Catholic Church.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #4 on: February 08, 2019, 01:14:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: ggreg on February 08, 2019, 01:08:43 PM
    If the Church annuls and re-marries you then presumeably it is not adultery.

    Otherwise the power to bind and loose is a joke.  The Church itself would be co-operating in your sin.

    What is the point in having a Church, if you have to second guess its decisions and authorisations?

    That isn't a divine institution, it is a joke and Luther was essentially correct in that case.
    Which is why I find the R&R position so confusing now. I've heard people here claim to be sedeplenists(that is - Francis is the Pope) and yet call him a heretic, call the New Mass sinful and say the Church is participating in sin like in the above scenario. How can you possibly believe the Church is actively leading souls to hell and still believe it's the true Church? The only reconciliation of that contradiction I've ever seen is the even more bizarre position that Francis is essentially the Pope of two Churches, the false Conciliar Church and the true Catholic Church.
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    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #5 on: February 08, 2019, 01:15:46 PM »
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    • I think Last Tradhican is implying that the post-Vatican II Church is an imposter church. 

    My question for Last Tradhican is what is/was the circuмstance of those Traditionalists that he was referring to?  How common is annulment/remarriage in the SSPX?  I'm betting that it is extremely rare - almost unheard of.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 01:17:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on February 08, 2019, 01:14:37 PM
    Which is why I find the R&R position so confusing now. I've heard people here claim to be sedeplenists(that is - Francis is the Pope) and yet call him a heretic, call the New Mass sinful and say the Church is participating in sin like in the above scenario. How can you possibly believe the Church is actively leading souls to hell and still believe it's the true Church? The only reconciliation of that contradiction I've ever seen is the even more bizarre position that Francis is essentially the Pope of two Churches, the false Conciliar Church and the true Catholic Church.
    Confusing?

    Simply, "R&R" folks remain the popes' good subject, but God's first, whereas the sedes, don't.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #7 on: February 08, 2019, 01:17:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Capt McQuigg on February 08, 2019, 01:15:46 PM
    I think Last Tradhican is implying that the post-Vatican II Church is an imposter church.

    My question for Last Tradhican is what is/was the circuмstance of those Traditionalists that he was referring to?  How common is annulment/remarriage in the SSPX?  I'm betting that it is extremely rare - almost unheard of.
    In my neck of the woods, I know at least 2 men offhand who received annulments. Both are remarried (or wanted to be). But that is hardly an exhaustive list. I didn't know everyone at my old chapel.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #8 on: February 08, 2019, 01:38:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: ggreg on February 08, 2019, 01:08:43 PM
    If the Church annuls and re-marries you then presumeably it is not adultery.

    Otherwise the power to bind and loose is a joke.  The Church itself would be co-operating in your sin.

    What is the point in having a Church, if you have to second guess its decisions and authorisations?

    That isn't a divine institution, it is a joke and Luther was essentially correct in that case.

    Not even the Church can "loosen" a marriage.  Now, subjectively, a person can act in conscience, without sin, based on the Church's decision.  But most of these people know in their heart of hearts that their marriage were not really null, and so they'll likely be judged on that before God.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 01:45:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 08, 2019, 01:38:38 PM
    Not even the Church can "loosen" a marriage.  Now, subjectively, a person can act in conscience, without sin, based on the Church's decision.  But most of these people know in their heart of hearts that their marriage were not really null, and so they'll likely be judged on that before God.

    I always wondered that.

    Most of them are only concerned about getting an annulment and getting re-married to their sweetheart (who they almost ALWAYS have as they seek an annulment -- just like out in the World with divorces!)
    Few get divorced until they have the next one lined up. Same with annulments among Trads, it would seem. That is a bad sign.
    Next bad sign: they don't seem very concerned that they were essentially "shacking up" for years or decades. They forget that an annulment means a marriage never took place. They don't even give lip service to this reality, much less take it to heart. I could be wrong, but they don't seem very broken up about it. They don't even mention or realize that all their children have been declared bastards.

    In every practical way, these Catholics -- even Trads -- treat annulments like the Catholic version of divorce.

    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 01:47:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Capt McQuigg on February 08, 2019, 01:15:46 PM
    I think Last Tradhican is implying that the post-Vatican II Church is an imposter church. (the annulments should be a strong indicator that the VatII church is a counterfeit church to anyone with eyes to see or those in doubt)

    My question for Last Tradhican is what is/was the circuмstance of those Traditionalists that he was referring to?  (notice that in the OP, I said they never tell you the details. That is not a good sign. I know one trad that was married by an independent priest and got an annulment from the Novus Ordo because they were married by an independent priest. I know another that had two annulments. I know of couples that were married by the SSPX and then got an annulment for that reason.  Listen, if I got an annulment, it would be because I believed in it with certainty of faith and I would explain it in detail if I told you I had an annulment. The fact that these people tell me that they had an annulment and do not say the details, tells me that they are not certain about their belief.)

    How common is annulment/remarriage in the SSPX?  (In my 20+ years of only going to SSPX chapels I've run into many. I would guess that in my chapel of 200+, there are 10 or more annulment couples. )

    I'm betting that it is extremely rare - almost unheard of. (I'm afraid that you'd lose your bet. That is why I said in the OP that I was surprised.)
    My responses in red.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #11 on: February 08, 2019, 01:54:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 08, 2019, 01:38:38 PM
    Not even the Church can "loosen" a marriage.  Now, subjectively, a person can act in conscience, without sin, based on the Church's decision.  But most of these people know in their heart of hearts that their marriage were not really null, and so they'll likely be judged on that before God.
    That is why I started this thread with the stark warning, for they will all go to hell, and for what? They sold their birthright for a bowl of pottage.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #12 on: February 08, 2019, 01:55:08 PM »
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    • The biggest problem with widespread annulments: it means that Traditional Catholic men & women can have multiple living sex partners, just like in the World. You could run into someone at the store who you had the most intimate of experiences with, who isn't your current spouse.

    The only way a man/woman should "experience" more than 1 spouse is when a spouse dies. But if you think about it, that's quite different. You're not going to run into a deceased spouse at the store, children won't blame you for moving on from their mother/father (since you didn't kill your spouse), and there isn't any possibility of jealousy, since your past spouse(s) are deceased. Your current spouse won't be jealous of a deceased person, and vice-versa. No drama. You can still look your kids in the eye and say you love them, especially because they are part "your previous spouse" who is now deceased, and probably very similar to them.

    When you move on from a living spouse -- be it annulment, divorce, whatever -- you are rejecting that person, and by extension your children who are 50% that person.

    It amazes me how shallow people can be. My wife's parents are divorced. How can my father-in-law claim to really love his daughter, when she is SO MUCH like the woman he spurned? At best, he could claim that he loves her, but he doesn't like her. They're both Catholic, musically inclined, homebody, risk-averse, stable, sober, responsible, down-to-earth, family-oriented, frugal, rule-following accountants.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #13 on: February 08, 2019, 01:56:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on February 08, 2019, 01:45:32 PM

    Most of them are only concerned about getting an annulment and getting re-married to their sweetheart (who they almost ALWAYS have as they seek an annulment -- just like out in the World with divorces!)
    Few get divorced until they have the next one lined up. Same with annulments among Trads, it would seem. That is a bad sign.
    Next bad sign: they don't seem very concerned that they were essentially "shacking up" for years or decades. They forget that an annulment means a marriage never took place. They don't even give lip service to this reality, much less take it to heart. I could be wrong, but they don't seem very broken up about it. They don't even mention or realize that all their children have been declared bastards.

    In every practical way, these Catholics -- even Trads -- treat annulments like the Catholic version of divorce.

    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
    They really have lost their minds.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #14 on: February 08, 2019, 04:16:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on February 08, 2019, 01:45:32 PM
    Most of them are only concerned about getting an annulment and getting re-married to their sweetheart (who they almost ALWAYS have as they seek an annulment -- just like out in the World with divorces!)
    That shouldn't necessarily mean anything. If someone has already left an invalid marriage, especially someone who is older, that person might not be inclined to go through the annulment process unless there is a proximate reason - a "sweetheart".  The annulment involves some time and often some cost, even when US dioceses subsidize most of that cost.

    That said, I do know one trad with an annulment through the modern Church. The woman entered the marriage fraudulently - a traditional reason for an invalid marriage (not just "emotional immaturity"). He started the annulment process as part of his civil divorce. He did not have a new partner lined up but expected to marry, as he was in his mid-20s at the time. This annulment is accepted by the traditional priest where he goes with his new family.

    The high quantity of annulments is mostly a US thing. In 2012, the US accounted for about half of annulment petitions worldwide. The next most numerous petitions were from Poland, accounting for 6% worldwide.

    FYI, until recently, modern US marriage tribunals routinely gave annulments for defect of form for marriages done within the SSPX. The last few years of SSPX-Rome negotiations got this changed.
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