Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham  (Read 32175 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rum

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 668
  • Reputation: +313/-166
  • Gender: Male
Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
« on: January 07, 2016, 06:40:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The following is from Emmerich's Life of Jesus Christ. The bolded parts are relevant. I've always associated the view that blacks are a cursed race with Talmudic teaching. Emmerich's writings played no part in her beautification, for the Church holds that Brentano adulterated her visions with his own musings. So it's not clear if the bolded parts come from her or from him. Are there any other Catholics who maintained this view of blacks?

    Quote
    5. CAIN. THE CHILDREN OF GOD. THE GIANTS

    I saw that Cain conceived on Mount Olivet the design to murder Abel, After the deed, he wandered about the same spot frightened and distracted planting trees and tearing them up again. Then I saw a majestic Figure in the form of a man refulgent with light appear to him. ''Cain," He said, "where is thy brother Abel?" Cain did not at first see the Figure; but when he did, he turned and answered: "I know not. He has not been given in charge to me." But when God replied that Abel's blood cried to Him from the earth, Cain grew more troubled, and I saw that he disputed long with God. God told him that he should be cursed upon the earth, that it should bring forth no fruit for him, and that he should forthwith flee from the land in which he then dwelt. Cain responded that everywhere his fellow men would seek to kill him. There were already many people upon the earth. Cain was very old and had children. Abel also left children, and there were other brothers and sisters, the children of Adam. But God replied that it would not be so; that whoever should kill Cain should himself be punished sevenfold, and He placed a sign upon him that no one should slay him. Cain's posterity gradually became colored. Cham's children also were browner than those of Sem. The nobler races were always of a lighter color. They who were distinguished by a particular mark engendered children of the same stamp; and as corruption increased, the mark also increased until at last it covered the whole body, and people became darker and darker. But yet in the beginning there were no people perfectly black; they became so only by degrees.

    God pointed out to Cain a region to which he should flee. And because Cain said: 'Then, wilt Thou let me starve?"—(the earth was for him accursed)—God answered no, that he should eat the flesh of animals. He told him likewise that a nation would arise from him, and that good also would come from him. Before this men ate no flesh.

    Cain went forth and built a city, which he named after his son Henoch.

    Abel was slain in the valley of Josaphat opposite Mount Calvary. Numerous murders and evil deeds took place there at a subsequent period. Cain slew Abel with a kind of club that he used to break soft stones and earth when planting in the fields. The club must have been of hard stone, for it was shaped like a pickaxe, the handle of wood.

    We must not picture to ourselves the earth before the Deluge as it is now. Palestine was by no means so broken up by valleys and ravines. Plains were far more extensive,

    and single mountains less lofty. The Mount of Olives was at that time only a gentle rising. The Crib Cave of Bethlehem was as later a wild cavern, but the surroundings were different.

    The people of those early times were larger, though not out of proportion. We would regard them with astonishment, but not with fright, for they were far more beautiful in form than people of a later period. Among the old marble statues that I see in many places lying in subterranean caves, may be found similar figures.

    Cain led his children and grandchildren to the region pointed out to him, and there they separated. Of Cain himself, I have never seen anything more that was sinful. His punishment appeared to consist in hard, but fruitless labor. Nothing in which he was personally engaged succeeded. I saw that he was mocked and reviled by his children and grandchildren, treated badly in every way. And yet they followed him as their leader, though as one accursed. I saw that Cain was severely punished, but not damned.

    One of Cain's descendants was Thubalcain, the originator of numerous arts, and the father of the giants. I have frequently seen that, when the angels fell, a certain number had a moment of repentance and did not in consequence fall as low as the others. Later on, these fallen spirits took up their abode on a high, desolate, and wholly inaccessible mountain whose site at the time of the Deluge became a sea, the Black Sea, I think. They were permitted to exercise their evil influence upon men in proportion as the latter strayed further from God. After the Deluge they disappeared from that region, and were confined to the air. They will not be cast into Hell before the last day.

    I saw Cain's descendants becoming more and more godless and sensual. They settled further and further up that mountain ridge where were the fallen spirits. Those spirits took possession of many of the women, ruled them com-

    pletely, and taught them all sorts of seductive arts. Their children were very large. They possessed a quickness, an aptitude for everything, and they gave themselves up entirely to the wicked spirits as their instruments. And so arose on this mountain and spread far around, a wicked race which by violence and seduction sought to entangle Sethi's posterity likewise in their own corrupt ways. Then God declared to Noe His intention to send the Deluge. During the building of the ark, Noe had to suffer terribly from those people.

    I have seen many things connected with the race of giants. They could with ease carry enormous stones high up the mountain, they could accomplish the most stupendous feats. They could walk straight up trees and walls just as I have seen others possessed by the devil doing. They could effect the most wonderful things, they could do whatever they wished; but all was pure jugglery and delusion due to the agency of the demon. It is for that reason that I have such horror of every species of jugglery and fortune-telling. These people could form all kinds of images out of stone and metal; but of the knowledge of God they had no longer a trace. They sought their gods in the creatures around them. I have seen them scratch up a stone, form it into an extravagant image, and then adore it. They worshipped also a frightful animal and all kinds of ignoble things. They knew all things, they could see all things, they were skilled in the preparing of poisons, they practiced sorcery and every species of wickedness. The women invented music. I saw them going around among the better tribes trying to seduce them to their own abominations. They had no dwelling houses, no cities, but they raised massive round towers of shining stone. Under those towers were little structures leading into great caverns wherein they carried on their horrible wickedness. From the roofs of these structures, the surrounding country could be seen, and by mounting up into the towers and

    looking through tubes, one could see far into the distance. But it was not like looking through tubes made to bring distant objects into view. The power of the tubes to which 1 here allude, was effected by satanic agency. They that looked through them could see where the other tribes were settled. Then they marched against them, overcame them, and lawlessly carried all before them. That same spirit of lawlessness they exercised everywhere. I saw them sacrificing children by burying them alive in the earth. God overthrew that mountain at the time of the Deluge.

    Henoch, Noe's ancestor, opposed that wicked race by his teachings. He wrote much. Henoch was a very good man and one very grateful to God, In many parts of the open fields, he raised altars of stone and there the fruits of the earth flourished. He gave thanks to God and offered sacrifice to Him. Chiefly in his family was religion preserved and handed down to Noe. Henoch was taken up to Paradise. There he waits at the entrance gate, whence with another (Elias) he will come again before the last day.

    Cham's descendants likewise had similar relations with the evil spirits after the Deluge, and from such connection sprang so many demoniacs and necromancers, so many mighty ones of the world, so many great, wild, daring men.

    Semiramis herself was the offspring of demoniacs, consequently she was apt at everything save the working out of her salvation.

    Later on, there arose another people esteemed as gods by the heathens. The women that first allowed themselves to be ruled by evil spirits were fully conscious of the fact, though others were ignorant of it. These women had it (the principle of possession) in them like flesh and blood, like original sin.

    6. NOE AND HIS POSTERITY. HOM AND DSEMSCHID, LEADERS OF THE PEOPLE

    I saw Noe, a simple-hearted old man, clothed in a long white garment. He was walking about in an orchard and pruning the trees with a crooked bone knife. A cloud hovered over him and in it was a human Figure. Noe fell on his knees, I saw that he was, then and there, interiorly instructed upon God's design to destroy mankind, and he was commanded to build an ark. I saw that Noe grew sad at the announcement, and that he prayed for the punishment to be averted. He did not begin the work at once. Again the Lord appeared to him, twice in succession, commanding him to begin the building, otherwise he should perish with the rest of mankind. At last, I saw Noe removing with all his family to the country in which Zoroaster, the Shining Star, subsequently dwelt. Noe settled in a high, woody, solitary region where he and his numerous followers lived under tents. Here he raised an altar and offered sacrifice to the Lord. Neither Noe nor any of his family built permanent houses, because they put faith in the prophecy of the Deluge. But the godless nations around laid massive foundations, marked off courts, and erected all kinds of buildings designed to resist the inroads of time and the attacks of an enemy.

    There were frightful deeds upon the earth in those days. Men delivered themselves up to all kinds of wickedness, even the most unnatural. They plundered one another and carried off whatever suited them best, they laid waste homes and fields, they kidnapped women and maidens. In proportion to their increase in numbers, was the wickedness of Noe's posterity. They even robbed and insulted Noe himself. They had not fallen into this state of base degradation from want of civilization. They were not wild and barbarous; rather, they lived commodiously and had well-ordered households—but they were deeply imbued

    with wickedness. They practiced the most shameful idolatry, everyone making his own god of whatever pleased him best. By diabolical arts, they sought to seduce Noe's immediate family. Mosoch, the son of Japhet and grandson of Noe, was thus corrupted after he had, while working in the field, taken from them a poisonous beverage which intoxicated him. It was not wine, but the juice of a plant which they were accustomed to drink in small quantities during their work, and whose leaves and fruit they chewed. Mosoch became the father of a son, who was named Horn.

    When the child was born, Mosoch begged his brother Thubal to take it, and thus hide his guilt. Thubal did so out of fraternal affection. The child, with the stalks and sprouts of a certain viscous root, was laid by his mother before Thubal's tent. She hoped thereby to acquire a right over his inheritance; but the Deluge was already at hand, and so her plans were fruitless. Thubal took the boy and had him reared in his family without betraying his origin. And so it happened in this way that the child was taken into the ark. Thubal called the boy Horn, the name of the root whose sprouts lay near him as the only sign. The child was not nourished with milk, but with the same root. If that plant is allowed to grow up straight, it will reach the height of a man; but when il creeps along the ground, it sends up shoots like the asparagus, hard with tender tops, It is used as food and as a substitute for milk. The root is bulbous, and from it rises a crown of a few brown leaves. Its stem is tolerably thick and the pith is used as meal, cooked like pap or spread in thin layers and baked. Wherever it thrives, it grows luxuriantly and covers leagues of ground. I saw it in the ark.

    It was long before the ark was completed, for Noe often discontinued it for years at a time. Three times did God warn him to proceed with it. Each time Noe would engage workmen, recommence and again discontinue in the hope

    that God would relent. But at last the work was finished.

    I saw that in the ark, as in the Cross, there were four kinds of wood: palm, olive, cedar, and cypress. I saw the wood felled and hewed upon the spot, and Noe bearing it himself upon his shoulders to the place of building, just as Jesus afterward carried the wood of His Cross. The spot chosen for the construction of the ark was a hill surrounded by a valley. First the bottom was put in.

    The ark was rounded in the back and the keel, shaped like a trough, was smeared with pitch. It had two stories supported on hollow posts, which stood one above another. These posts were not round trunks of trees; they were in oval sections filled with a white pith which became fibrous toward the center. The trunk was knotty, or furrowed, and the great leaves grew around it without branches. (Probably a species of palm,) I saw the workmen punching the pith out with a tool. All other trees were cut into thin planks. When Noe had carried all the materials to the appointed spot and arranged them in order, the building was begun. The bottom was put in and pitched, the first row of posts raised, and the holes in which they stood filled up with pitch. Then came the second floor with another row of posts for the third floor, and then the roof. The spaces between the posts were filled in with brown and yellow laths placed crosswise, the holes and chinks being stuffed with a kind of wool found on certain trees and plants, and a white moss that grows very abundantly around some trees. Then all was pitched inside and outside. The roof was rounded. The entrance between the two windows was in the center of one side, a little more than halfway up. In the middle of the roof likewise was a square aperture. When the ark had been entirely covered with pitch, it shone like a mirror in the sun. Noe went on working alone and for a long time at the different compartments for the animals, as all were to be separate. Two passages extended through the middle of the ark, and back

    in the oval part, concealed by hangings, stood a wooden altar, the table of which was semicircular. A little in the front of the altar was a pan of coals. This was their fire. Right and left, were spaces partitioned off for sleeping apartments. All kinds of chests and utensils were carried into the ark, and numerous seeds, plants, and shrubs were put into earth around the walls, which were soon covered with verdure. 1 saw something like vines carried in, and on them large yellow grapes, the bunches as long as one's arm.

    No words can express what Noe endured from the malice and ill will of the workmen during the whole time that the ark was building. They mocked him, they insulted him in every way, they called him a fool. He paid them well in cattle, but that did not prevent their reviling him. No one knew why he was building the ark, therefore did they ridicule him. When all was finished, 1 saw Noe giving thanks to God, who then appeared to him. He told him to take a reed pipe and call all the animals from the four corners of the globe. The nearer the day of chastisement approached, the darker grew the heavens. Frightful anxiety took possession of the whole earth; the sun no longer showed his face, and the roar of the thunder was unceasingly heard. 1 saw Noe going a short distance north, south, east, and west, and blowing upon his reed pipe. The animals came flocking at the sound and entered the ark in order, two by two, male and female. They went in by a plank laid from the entrance to the ground. When all were safe inside, the plank also was hoisted in. The largest animals, white elephants and camels, went in first. They were restless as at the approach of a storm, and it took several days for them all to enter. The birds flew in through the skylight and perched under the roof on poles and in cages, while the waterfowl went into the bottom of the vessel. The land animals were in the middle story. Of such as are slaughtered, there were seven couples.

    The ark, lying there by itself on the top of the hill, shone with a bluish light. At a distance, it looked as if it were descending from the clouds. And now the time for the Deluge drew nigh. Noe had already announced it to his family. He took with him into the ark Sem, Cham, and Japhet with their wives and their children. There were in the ark grandsons from fifty to eighty years old with their children small and large. All that had labored at its construction and who were good and free from idolatry, entered with Noe. There were over one hundred people in the ark, and they were necessary to give daily food to the animals and to clean after them. I must say, for I always see it so, that Sem's, Cham's and Japhet's children all went into the ark. There were many little boys and girls in it, in fact all of Noe's family that were good. Holy Scripture mentions only three of Adam's children, Cain, Abel, and Seth; and yet I see many others among them, and I always see them in pairs, boys and girls. And so too, in / Peter 3:20, only eight souls are mentioned as saved in the ark; viz., the four ancestral couples by whom, after the Deluge, the earth was to be peopled. I also saw Horn in the ark. The child was fastened by a skin into a bark cradle formed like a trough. I saw many infants cradled in a similar way, floating on the waters of the Deluge.

    When the ark rose on the waters, when crowds of people upon the surrounding mountains and in the high trees were weeping and lamenting, when the waters were covered with the floating bodies of the drowned and with uprooted trees, Noe and his family were already safe inside. Before he and his wife, his three sons and their wives entered the ark, he once more implored God's mercy. When all had entered, Noe drew in the plank and made fast the door. He left outside near relatives and their families who, during the building of the ark, had separated from him. Then burst forth a fearful tempest. The lightnings played in fiery columns, the rains fell in tor-

    rents, and the hill upon which the ark stood soon became an island. The misery was great, so great that I trust it was the means of many a soul's salvation. I saw a devil, black and hideous, with pointed jaws and a long tail, going to and fro through the tempest and tempting men to despair. Toads and serpents sought a hiding place in the crevices of the ark. Flies and vermin I saw not. They came into existence later to torment men.

    I saw Noe offering sacrifice in the ark upon an altar covered with red over which was a white cloth. In an arched chest were preserved the bones of Adam. During prayer and sacrifice, Noe laid them on the altar. I saw on the altar, likewise, the Chalice of the Last Supper which, during the building of the ark, had been brought to Noe by three figures in long white garments. They looked like the three men that announced to Abraham the birth of a son. They came from a city that was destroyed at the time of the Deluge. They addressed Noe as one whose fame had reached them, and told him that he should take with him into the ark a mysterious something that they gave him, in order that it might escape the waters of the Deluge. The mysterious thing was that Chalice. In it lay a grain of wheat, large as a sunflower seed, and a vine branch. Noe stuck both into a yellow apple and put it into the Chalice. The Chalice had no cover, for the branch was to grow out of it. After the dispersion of men at the building of the Tower of Babel, I saw that Chalice in the possession of one of Sem's descendants in the country of Semiramis. He was the ancestor of the Samanenses, who were established at Canaan by Melchisedech. Hither they took the Chalice.

    I saw the ark driving over the waters, and dead bodies floating around. It rested upon a high rocky peak of a mountain chain far to the east of Syria, and there it remained for a long time. I saw that land was already appearing. It looked like mud covered with a greenish mold.

    Immediately after the Deluge, fish and shellfish began to be eaten. Afterward, as people multiplied, they ate bread and birds. They planted gardens, and the soil was so fruitful that the wheat which they sowed produced ears as large as those of maize. The root from which Horn received his name was also planted. Noe's tent stood on the spot where, at a later period, was that of Abraham. In the plain and in the surrounding country, Noe's sons had their tents.

    I saw the cursing of Cham. But Sem and Japhet received from Noe on their knees the Blessing. It was delivered to them with ceremonies similar to those used by Abraham when giving over the same Blessing to Isaac. I saw the curse pronounced by Noe upon Cham moving toward the latter like a black cloud and obscuring him. His skin lost its whiteness, he grew darker. His sin was the sin of sacrilege, the sin of one who would forcibly enter the Ark of the Covenant. I saw a most corrupt race descend from Cham and sink deeper and deeper in darkness. I see that the black, idolatrous, stupid nations are the descendants of Cham. Their color is due, not to the rays of the sun, but to the dark source whence those degraded races sprang.

    Offline Miseremini

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1381
    • Reputation: +934/-52
    • Gender: Female
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 07:10:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Father Meagher talks about the curse being the black races in his book, "How Christ Said the First Mass"  (excellent history)

    Before the 1960's, protestant ministers often spoke of the cursed black races, but with the fall of segregation in the U.S. they became politically correct.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2397
    • Reputation: +1274/-624
    • Gender: Male
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 07:37:28 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Miseremini
    Father Meagher talks about the curse being the black races in his book, "How Christ Said the First Mass"  (excellent history)

    Before the 1960's, protestant ministers often spoke of the cursed black races, but with the fall of segregation in the U.S. they became politically correct.


    Protestant ministers are blind guides, it is actually they who are truly accursed.

    Regarding the "accursed Black races" as you say Fr. Meagher speaks, perhaps you can expand on what he means accursed. There are many Black saints in the Catholic Church.

    What does it mean to be accursed? To the people of the world, to be accursed  means poverty, one then could say that the yellow race is accursed, the Chinese, the "red" race, the Americas Indians, the Hindus, the Indians of India, the Arabs of the Middle East, in fact pretty much all Muslim peoples are poor. The Russians and the former USSR have always been dirt poor serfs and accursed by worldly standards. What does that leave (to the worldly minded)? The only un-accursed then are the  Europeans, Americans, the Japanese (who are not maids and servants),  maybe a few others, certainly a very small percentage of the world's population is not accursed to the worldly minded. The Blacks" are but a small fraction of this "accursed".

    To be accursed to a Catholic is to be predestined for damnation. Only God knows who those people are, however, we can say that all non-Catholics are on the road to being the accursed. Whether they stay on that accursed road or turn to the salvation of the Catholic Faith is the sword that divides the blessed from the accursed. To a Catholic, the Blacks are not accursed.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5564
    • Reputation: +2025/-40
    • Gender: Male
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 08:02:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Blacks were OK before the Jews taught them racial hatred of Whites,
    and Whites were responsible for bringing them to the U.S. as slaves.
    Never mind the Jews owned the slave ships and many Jewish
    households owned black slaves.
    Look at today's Israelis. They treat the Black Jews from Ethiopia the
    same as Palestinians.
    And absolutely no refugees and migrants from Syria.

    Offline Desmond

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 623
    • Reputation: +11/-28
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 08:15:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    (...)
    Look at today's Israelis. They treat the Black Jews from Ethiopia the
    same as Palestinians.
    (...)


    I thought the issue with the Ethiopian "jews" was more about Talmudists despising their "Torah alone" sect of judaism more than their race itself.


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5564
    • Reputation: +2025/-40
    • Gender: Male
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 10:02:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Desmond
    Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    (...)
    Look at today's Israelis. They treat the Black Jews from Ethiopia the
    same as Palestinians.
    (...)


    I thought the issue with the Ethiopian "jews" was more about Talmudists despising their "Torah alone" sect of judaism more than their race itself.


    The truth is a Jew is a religion, not a race.  It is the modern day Israel
    since 1948 made being a Jew a race.
    One Israeli Official was quoted that Israel is for the "White Man" and
    never was called down, nor censored for that statement.

    Offline Miseremini

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1381
    • Reputation: +934/-52
    • Gender: Female
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 10:13:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Last Tradhican
    Quote from: Miseremini
    Father Meagher talks about the curse being the black races in his book, "How Christ Said the First Mass"  (excellent history)

    Before the 1960's, protestant ministers often spoke of the cursed black races, but with the fall of segregation in the U.S. they became politically correct.


    Protestant ministers are blind guides, it is actually they who are truly accursed.

    Regarding the "accursed Black races" as you say Fr. Meagher speaks, perhaps you can expand on what he means accursed. There are many Black saints in the Catholic Church.


    To be accursed to a Catholic is to be predestined for damnation. Only God knows who those people are, however, we can say that all non-Catholics are on the road to being the accursed. Whether they stay on that accursed road or turn to the salvation of the Catholic Faith is the sword that divides the blessed from the accursed. To a Catholic, the Blacks are not accursed.


    1. Who cursed protestant ministers to damnation?  Do they not have the ability to respond to God's graces and be saved?  I've personally heard of ministers converting.

    2.  Father Meagher expands on Noah's curse that they will be servants showing how this occurred throughout history with neither invention nor discovery nor anything substantial coming from the black race.

    3. "To be accursed to a Catholic is to be predestined for damnation"
    Whoa....that's a mouthful.  It only applies if you are cursed to hell by God .
    The bible is full of curses and they have nothing to do with damnation.
    In Genesis God cursed the snake .....to crawl on his belly
                     God cursed Cain... a fugitive and vagabond shalt thou be upon the                                                      earth
                     God promised Noah He would never again curse the earth for the sake of man.
    Jewish law said anyone who was hung on a tree was cursed.   Well we know that didn't apply to Christ.
    Google the word cursed in the bible and you'll understand better.

    The OP asked " Are there any other Catholics who maintained this view of blacks?   I simply offered Fr. Meagher's book.

    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline ClarkSmith

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 478
    • Reputation: +252/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 03:04:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Were her writing questioned from the beginning or only till recently?


    Online JezusDeKoning

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2327
    • Reputation: +756/-386
    • Gender: Male
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 03:43:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Miseremini
    Father Meagher talks about the curse being the black races in his book, "How Christ Said the First Mass"  (excellent history)

    Before the 1960's, protestant ministers often spoke of the cursed black races, but with the fall of segregation in the U.S. they became politically correct.


    Mormons, too. It wasn't until 1978 that they allowed blacks to get married within their religion or hold any status whatsoever. Why? Because Joseph Smith interpreted the Curse of Ham to be just that.
    Justice for Hannah Cornelius

    Offline LaramieHirsch

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2495
    • Reputation: +847/-74
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 04:27:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fun topic.  

    Here's an earlier discussion about rumors of Ham smuggling black magic onto the Ark before the Flood.


    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Ham-smuggled-magic-past-the-Flood
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Graham

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +1885/-8
    • Gender: Male
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 04:45:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Predestined for damnation"?


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17890
    • Reputation: +8168/-615
    • Gender: Male
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #11 on: January 08, 2016, 10:41:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A few relevant images:









    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Immaculata001

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 217
    • Reputation: +158/-13
    • Gender: Female
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #12 on: January 09, 2016, 01:27:36 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • As one of those "Blacks," I'm terribly curious as to how believing that I'm supposedly "cursed" will help with my continual conversion. I wonder how my spiritual life would change for the better, as a Catholic, considering I'm usually grateful for the amazing blessings and mercies that God has bestowed, although I've consistently failed at moral goodness and change of my own free will. But then again, does anyone who would be attracted to such ideas really care about repentance and conversion? And that’s the rub…

    Here's the problem with threads like these, as far as I can see:

    1. They're born of a (White) American perspective that perceives all Blacks as Protestant and/or culturally and socially alien (because they tend to project American demographics and experiences onto the entire planet): this is false. Most blacks, internationally, are Catholic. Further, Blacks in Latin countries that are Catholic (or more accurately "were", thanks to the SatanicV2 plot) have more Catholic sensibility and culture than White American Catholics, including trads, because White American Catholics have been Catholics in a predominantly Protestant country. Protestantism has seeped into every dimension of White American Catholic thought, so that ideas that are quintessentially Protestant ("Enlightenment" thought, scientific racism -- based in Darwinism --  radical Capitalism) are believed to be consistent with Catholic ideology, only because they're widely accepted by White American Catholics. They're not consistent. They are actually opposed and contrary to Catholic thought. White Catholics really have no room to talk as it concerns “authentic” Catholicism: Catholicism practiced within a Protestant milieu is essentially abnormal. So don’t throw around accusation of voodoo or syncretism: a Catholic who espouses American constitutional freemasonic “Enlightenment” ideology and defends a radically Capitalist economic racket propped up by Jewish bankers has no room to talk to a voodoo believing African about anything. Two sides of the same freaking coin.

    2. The dialogue about supposed Black inferiority pretty obviously stokes feelings of pride and superiority in people who hold the belief that they must belong to the superior race – after all, you are free of that curse, so you’ve got that in your favor. There's no need to go into why stoking pride in a traditional Catholic would be a bad thing. I'm not just talking about "racial pride" -- I'm talking about any type of pride. None of us has ANYTHING to be proud of, because of SIN.

     I do not understand how anyone adhering to traditional Catholic practice – and not just attending Mass – would see the preservation and cultivation of pride as beneficial to repentance and conversion. There’s no need to even go into why it’s wrong – it’s self evident to someone who’s really Catholic.

    And that realization, that “trads” don’t really practice Catholicism, is what I actually find disturbing about such threads. People are attracted to debate, politics and outrage, but have almost zero interest in repentance and continual conversion, to the extent that they’re not concerned what these ideas and the expression of them shows about their spiritual state. Do we even ask ourselves why we’re interested in proving that others are inferior? How does God perceive a person, no A SINNER, who makes such an argument? (I could just see a trad before judgment saying to God, “But how could you let that nigger in before me?” God’s answer: “Because he’s Saint Martin de Porres?” And before you get your panties in a bunch and go clutching your pearls, I thought many here actually freely use the word “nigger”? If I’ve been called it, why can’t I say it?)

    3. The effects of the dialogue?

    It’s incredibly damaging to not only how people perceive traditionalism (gives them all the evidence they need to condemn), but it will fracture traditionalist communities and alienate people who do not belong to the supposedly “superior” race. The irony is that the supposedly “superior” race is, internationally, the minority (most people in the world are not White). If we’re really concerned about Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell, and not only for ourselves, but for others, wouldn’t you want to attract and convert people, rather than alienate them due to the promotion of a political argument (steeped in scientific racism, which comes directly from Darwinism), that not only is not central to Catholicism, but is, logically, contrary to it?

    Why would one be willing to do that, unless one were more attached to reactionary politics, rather than Catholic spirituality and practice?

    4. I personally do not believe that most Catholics, traditional or pseudo-Catholic (I call them Protestant-Catholics and tend to think of them as Anglicans), actually practice  Catholicism.  The impact on reading this type of argument has made me not seek any fraternity or connection with other “trads.” Essentially, I don’t believe them. I think they’re frauds. I think these ideologies are political “smells and bells.”

    There was thread about moral degeneracy among traditionalists (“If We Knew Who Other Trads Really Are” or something to that effect). How is that kind of moral degeneracy possible among people who actually seek continual conversion? The answer, for me anyway, is that they’re not seeking it – and God knows all about it. He’s got the dirt on all of us, myself included.

    5. I am very sick and tired of both American Blacks and American Whites with their racial obsession (do not even get me started on American Blacks with their attraction to degeneracy and criminality and their worship of their victim identity, and their massive inferiority complexes – I truly cannot even interact with such people).

    I am courting another Catholic who is Italian (he’s from Rome) and I’m seeing the advantages of leaving this country and its obsessions as we (God willing) discern marriage. It’s a better idea for me to have access to Mass and the remnants of the Roman cultural philosophical legacy.

    A bit ironic that a “cursed” descendant of Ham would be the one traditionalist on this board that invested in either, isn’t it?
    "But 'tis strange:
    And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
    The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
    Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
    In deepest consequence.." Banquo, from Shakespeare's Macbeth

    Offline LaramieHirsch

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2495
    • Reputation: +847/-74
    • Gender: Male
      • h
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #13 on: January 09, 2016, 02:17:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Immaculata001
    Here's the problem with threads like these, as far as I can see:


    Awesome and fun response, this.  Now THIS post is what I call "starting a conversation about race."  The Al Sharptons of this country will go on and on about how we need to have a conversation about race, but they don't really want that.  

    This is great, in my opinion.  This is why I love the internet.  We can take our time with replies, without certain pressures.  

    And if ONLY I had more time to participate in this thread.  I'll do my best to remember this thread by mid-March, when I'll hopefully have passed my registry exam and have more time to invest myself into conversation.  

    - - -

    1. Okay, first of all, people are cursed.  That's just a fact.  My family has been cursed, in fact.  I come from a line of FreeMasons, actually, among other problems that have trickled through the generations.  But I'm not going to take offense, posture, or play victim card with it.  I'll do my best to stop the curses with my generation, so that my kids and grand kids will have a better life.  

    2.  Black people and white people are different.  This really isn't hard to figure out.  It's true.  But I find that the One Thing that allows people to transcend race is the Holy Spirit and the power of God through the Catholic Church.  My wife--not from this country--has differences from myself.  What unites us and makes us strong as a family is our faith in God and devotion to His Church.  People will transcend this world's nonsense with the power of the Church, and I believe that without it, the obvious differences will tear people apart.

    As a matter of fact, I believe that the only thing that will prevent the United States from balkanizing in a future civil war will be mass conversion to the Catholic Church.  (I'm not saying conversion will happen.  Only that conversion is the only thing that can save us from the bloody future I describe.)

    But race is real.  And those who turn away from Christ--the Jews come to mind--will use these obvious differences to destroy everyone around them.  The Jews really do want to mongrelize the nations, and they hold that goal up as a virtue, when in reality, they know they are tearing the goyim apart with it.  They want to intensify hatred between the races, and they also want to mix them up together.  Proximity + Race = War, and globalist Jews love this very natural fact of life.  

    The only way to fight them is for people to convert to the Church.  That is the only way.  

    3. I find that David Chappelle has done more to bring the blacks and whites together in this country than any civil rights activist of the second half of the 20th Century.  Not that he was Catholic or anything.  But I do believe that acknowledging the differences between each other--and laughing about those differences--can be the first step in building bridges

    4. As far as the curse of Ham, if it's real, it's real.  What does that change?  If not, then it's an amusing anecdote from antiquity.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2397
    • Reputation: +1274/-624
    • Gender: Male
    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #14 on: January 09, 2016, 09:15:43 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Graham
    "Predestined for damnation"?


    Yes, that is correct.

    Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circumstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circumstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]


    In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation;along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circumstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul.


    This Doctrine means that from all eternity God has known who were His own
    . It is for the salvation of these, His Elect, that Providence has directed, does direct, and will always direct, the affairs of men and the events of history. Nothing, absolutely nothing, that happens, has not been taken into account by the infinite God, and woven into that tapestry in which is written the history of the salvation of His saints. Central in this providential overlordship is the Church itself, which is the sacred implement which God devised for the rescuing of His beloved ones from the damnation decreed for those who would not. (Mt. 23:37).

    The Doctrine of Divine Election means that only certain individuals will be saved.  They will be saved primarily because, in the inscrutable omniscience of God, only certain individuals out of all the human family will respond to the grace of salvation. In essence, this doctrine refers to what in terms of human understanding and vision, is before and after, the past, the present, and the future, but what in God is certain knowledge and unpreventable fact, divine action and human response.

    Calvin and others have made the mistake of believing that these words mean that predestination excludes human choice and dispenses from true virtue. Catholic doctrine explains simply that the foreknowledge of God precedes the giving of grace. It means, further, that, since without grace there can be no merit, and without merit no salvation, those who will be saved must be foreknown as saved by God, if they are to receive the graces necessary for salvation.


    Thus, what is the meaning of this election? That from all eternity God has ordered the events of history, so that His Elect might have the grace of salvation. And how do they know of this election? By the fact that they are in the Church, through no deservingness of their own? They know of no reason why God should bestow this grace, the knowledge of the truth, and the willingness and power to believe it, upon them, while others, who seem more worthy, go without it. As regards His Elect, not only has God determined to bestow necessary grace, but also, all His actions in the world must be seen as part of His salvific plan. In a word, nothing that He does is unrelated to the salvation of His Beloved Sheep. Human history, apart from the glory of Holy Church, and the salvation of the Elect.


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16