[Raoul76]

I have been reading threads at Catholic Answers about interracial marriages.  After one too many repetitions of "There is only one race -- the human race" I thought I would bring the controversy over here to get some more level-headed responses.

There was one woman ( white ) on the site who talked about having a black husband and then another husband afterwards, also black.  Everyone cooed and praised her and said how beautiful it was that she was overcoming prejudice.  

Really now?  Is it really this simple?  Why does Othello still have the shock it does today if there wasn't something a bit bizarre about interracial marriages?  Just on an instinctual level, for me personally -- I'm not talking about the Church now -- a white person marrying an Arab is a bit strange but not that shocking.  However, a white person marrying someone who is pitch-black and of African descent does seem very strange and radiates "taboo."  And I find marriages between whites and Asians pretty strange as well despite how commonplace it has become lately.  

I will confess here that I have a pretty negative reaction to seeing white women with black men.  That would not go over well on Catholic Answers, but I'm half-Spanish -- deal with it.  I'm not racist at all, I don't even believe that any race is superior to any other like some here, but I am somehow not comfortable with certain interracial marriages.  I guess that is where the line is drawn for me.  

To me it looks very odd.  If there was a Catholic couple who were racially mixed in this way, I wouldn't shun them or look down on them or anything like that, but the feeling of oddness would remain.  I'd just hide it from them out of politeness.  I don't feel hate for these couples, not at all, it just makes me uncomfortable. The reality however is that this has probably been been seen very rarely in the Western hemisphere from the time of Trent until Vatican II.  It's hard for me to imagine Bessie from Dublin in 1742 waltzing into chapel with a black husband.

The Church has no prohibitions against racially-mixed marriages, as everyone points out, and I agree.  However, it is well known that certain marriages are displeasing to God.  These are the marriages based on lust or for other impure motives -- marriages that do not fulfill God's will.  The Church, not being able to see into the heart, cannot decide which marriages are displeasing to God.  Therefore it hasn't forbidden interracial marriages, because it is not possible to say that they are all contracted out of impure motives.  ( Although I have read that the Spanish clergy did penalize Spaniards who slept with Native Americans in the New World, and that this was indeed considered taboo. )

I know very well that lust knows no skin color.  Two white people can easily be together mainly for purposes of satiating lust, and be part of a marriage that is displeasing to God.  A Catholic should learn to look beyond the surface and judge someone based on their character, although we know how rarely this happens.  But it seems to me that to be with someone of a radically different race has an ingrained element of rebellion and taboo to it, unless there are social reasons to do so, like when the Moors invaded various countries and took over.  I do not think Americans have such a good excuse -- mainly we are pressured by the media to get over the old taboos and have a sort of sɛҳuąƖ free-for-all to show how democratized and open we have become.  This attitude, one that I wholeheartedly disapprove of and think is Babylonian, appears to have infected the Vatican II Church.

All of this is probably a red herring though because from what I understand, most people marry within their race, whether outside or inside the Church.  To me an interracial marriage should not be undertaken except under the guidance of a special inspiration, but I am aware that this is just my opinion and not that of the Church.

[Raoul76]

When I say that there is a Babylonian sɛҳuąƖ free-for-all, a sort of banquet of liberalism, this can be seen in the fact that mixed couples are not just accepted now but almost seen to be heroes, like they are standing up against oppression and prejudice.  Give me a break.

[Belloc]

why are you "going there"? what would be the motivation, other than some strange fetishism (we already know your obsession with NFP).

Thought-we have a couple in our Church that are now in their early 50's or late 40's.She is a honky, white woman and by all appearances, he is black, though of mixed ancestry.He comes originally from PR.

They were married in the Church and have 2 grown children. No one stares at them, at least, in CHurch as they are united in a covenantly bound marriage. So big deal what they look like.

So, I "went there" and found it a exercise in futility, it has added nothing to the discussion.....

again, other than some demented strange fetish, what is the purpose of this thread, again?

[gladius_veritatis]

Part of the reason this has become an issue is that we zip here and there with ease, moving across the world, etc.  In previous times, people pretty much lived and died in their native region, which region, naturally, was filled mostly with people of one race.

Trying to amalgamate all people is, in a way, like unto the commie insanity of trying to pretend society can ever be completely level in every sense.  It is contrary to reason and nature and, therefore, doomed to failure (and pursuing the chimera involves a heavy price).

[Catholic Samurai]

There is nothing sinful about people of different races marrying. More than likely you will end up marrying someone of different race if you are a Traditional Catholic, and it the most important factor is that of the Faith. If you are a Traditional Catholic you have to marry a Traditional Catholic, however, the cultural factor will be the 2nd greatest determining factor because you will be dealing with the mannerisms, customs, tendencies, and cultural ideals of that person FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. For example, if you married a Trad Spaniard, but you cant live with their passionate temper, dont like Hispanic food, cant stand the accent, and dont like their customs, then you are NOT going to get along with that person.

The reason you see people of mixed race marrying is because one or both individuals have more or less abandoned their culture or both those individuals share the same culture. I have observed that black&white couples get along together because the partners both share the same culture, and that culture is either a mainstream culture or an Anglo/Saxon culture which means that the black person in the relationship is not the typical African American, but someone who grew up with white people, speaks clearly, has good manners, and , in short, is Anglocized. If you took two Trads, a young man (such as myself) who likes rock music, enjoys agriculture, is a political "radical" , and who has a strong Hispanic heritage, and put him together with an African American girl who likes hip-hop, likes the city, doesnt care about politics, and who takes pride in her skin color. Needless to say we are not going to get along, not because I hate her, but because we have little or nothing in common and our cultures conflict so much that a life long bond is out of the question. Now did the fact that we were both practicing Traditional Catholics make a difference? No, because our philosophy and cultures do not compliment but conflict.

This is the main reason why you see more mixed marriages among Europeans than among Africans and Europeans. The proof that religion is the main factor is the most common mixture among the Northerners is Dutch/German/English/and Scandinavian... all of those people are Protestants, while among Catholics you will find a mixture of Austrians/Czechs/Italians/Polish/French/Spanish/and Irish.

[Raoul76]

gladius_veritatis said:

Trying to amalgamate all people is, in a way, like unto the commie insanity of trying to pretend society can ever be completely level in every sense. It is contrary to reason and nature and, therefore, doomed to failure (and pursuing the chimera involves a heavy price).

I agree.  The attitude to mixed-race marriages on Catholic Answers is less tolerant than openly celebratory, to the point where people who wanted to marry inside their race might be made to feel "racist."  That is how extreme this has gotten.  It's almost like there is cachet involved in mixed-race marriages.  The farther outside your race you go, the more open-minded you are and the more everyone has the warm fuzzies and holds hands and sings Kumbaya, all under the aegis of Joseph Ratzinger.

Maybe I am drawing a connection that isn't there, but a religious, spiritual and cultural dumbing-down strikes me as one possible -- and in our time, actual -- result of this glorification of the melting pot.  On Catholic Answers some of the vocal champions of mixed marriages also were extremely religiously tolerant, to the point of heretical.  One woman said she likes to go to service at ѕуηαgσgυєs and no one said anything. "Racist" attitudes extending even to mild disapproval of certain interracial marriages were treated as archaic, and those who were not completely airy-fairy zippity-doo-dah about interracial marriages were compared to people who "still" believe there is a "Jєωιѕн problem."  The effect is extremely redolent of a complete brainwashing.  While the Church has never forbidden interracial marriages, many Catholics were against them.  The Spanish did foresee the dangers of Europeans intermingling carelessly with Native Americans although this was basically inevitable.

Is there a kind of Montezuma's revenge going on here, are the natives getting a leg up on the Catholic colonizers by slowly turning them back around to paganism?  When you look at America today, one word comes to mind -- TRIBAL.  The tattoos and earrings and racial intermixing and melange of various world-musics has the stench of paganism.  Christ talks about the Second Coming as occurring at a time when the Earth is tribal -- "The tribes of the Earth shall mourn."  I don't think I'm going out on much of a limb here by saying that I see what He is talking about shaping up.  Mel Gibson's film Apocalypto, though purportedly about the Mayan civilization, is undoubtedly really about the U.S., where people are frozen by human sacrifice as spectacle ( 9/11 ) and living like Indians ( too bad I can't recommend it due to nudity ).  

That brings up another question -- Is there a connection between racial dilution and religious dilution?  Is this part of the reason why the world went along so easily with Vatican II?  Look how the South American Catholics, many of whom are mixed, instantly embraced liberation theology, mingling Che Guevara with Christ.  I also would hazard that a white person married to a Mexican will be less inclined to resist some kind of quasi-voodoo, quasi-pagan and/or party Mass, like one sees in certain Mexican-centered chapels involved with Vatican II.  

******
Sorry, but there are more problems here than the politically correct view would have it.  The world is degenerating horribly.  Look around you.

Yes, there are mixed-race couples in the trad world.  I'm talking generally, not specifically.  Is this really a good thing in general to be carelessly diluting the races?  If the whole world became "yellow" would it be spiritually and intellectually improved or the opposite?   There is nothing in theory that says interracial Catholic marriages are doomed to failure. But which way will the kids go growing up in this environment?  Do you really think they're going to become more traditional, or more "modern"?  Is it really the best thing for the Catholic Church to add more fuel to what looks to be a great conflagration in the making?  If this keeps up, the faith will be even more unrecognizable in a couple of generations, to the point where Anti-Christ may be ready to take his bow.

On the one hand, obviously there has been race-mixing in Italy because the Italians are dark-skinned now.  They don't look like the ancient Romans.  It didn't stop them from being Catholic.  On the other hand, why did God break up the Tower of Babel if he wanted everyone to socially and sɛҳuąƖly combine in a nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr?  Maybe my problem is not primarily interracial marriages in themselves but interracial marriages in the context of Americanism/Vatican II and how it supports the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.  Was it really part of God's design to mix Asians from the Far East, Africans from the heart of the dark continent, whites from Europe, the most far-flung kinds of peoples, all together under the supervision of the Freemasons and Jєωs?  I doubt it, though He permitted it to happen.  

I think a certain reactionary attitude is downright necessary in the face of all this, even if interracial marriages are intrinsically neutral in themselves, neither good nor bad.  There is a sociopolitical element here that is rife with danger.  In certain interracial marriages with someone of a pagan background, these days you have to wonder, is the pagan being Catholicized or the Catholic being paganized?

[Raoul76]

Just for the record, when I first came on this website, clare was defending interracial marriages vehemently.  I came to her aid a little by saying "I prefer an interracial Catholic marriage to a non-Catholic marriage between two people of the same race."  I stand by that.  Nevertheless, I am definitely against this politically-correct, brainwashed hysteria where interracial marriages are seen as a positive good that gives you brownie-points as an enlightened modern man, and where the potential consequences, both personal and sociopolitical, are casually dismissed with a wave of the hand.  

Personally I do find certain mixed-race couples odd.  But I can't say I'm very consistent about that.  If I were going to marry, I would marry a converted Muslim perhaps but not an Asian.  Marrying a Chinese woman would go "too far" for me.  Don't ask me to explain why.  

As for white women with black men, I think it is naive to say that there isn't something disturbing about it.  Movies like Guess Who's Coming to Dinner trade on this inherent shock value.  People just don't want to talk about it, and that is my usual cue to do my bull in the china shop routine.

[Catholic Samurai]

Is there a kind of Montezuma's revenge going on here, are the natives getting a leg up on the Catholic colonizers by slowly turning them back around to paganism?  

Before the Revolution, the Spaniards pulled the Native Americans up to their own level. Now, after the Revolution and removing the Catholic heritage the Spaniards brought, the Republic has adopted paganism in order to bring the Indians back down to their ancient savagery and at the same time pull down the Hispanics with them through ignorance about their Catholic ancestors. Throw away your ancestors and you will throw away yourself. That is the major problem with mixing races... you lose your connection to your Catholic ancestors and their legacy if your family is not assimilated culturally. Ven.Gabriel Garcia Moreno the President of Ecuador said that he owed his strong religious foundation to two things... his pious mother's instruction, and his Spanish ancestors and the Catholic legacy he inherited from them. Now would Ven.Gabriel have that connection if he was mixed with Spanish,German,English, Arab,Chinese,Japanese, and African? No, because his heritage would then be dominantly pagan, and would undeniably affect his formation due to the cultural influences.

You will notice that what is encouraged is the mixing of Europeans who have a Catholic heritage with Africans and Asians who have a pagan one. Notice that the Asians and Africans are not encouraged to mix with each other? It is all for the sake of destroying what links that our children should have with our Catholic ancestors.

[Raoul76]

Good point, Catholic Samurai.  You read history as an anti-Catholic conspiracy and you are right.  

This subject is fascinating to me.  You could say that throughout history there have been alternating cycles of liberal attitudes towards interracial marriage that are then followed by virtual pogroms, or at least expulsions.  This was the case in Italy and Spain.

From Wikipedia article "Miscegenation"

"As was the case in other regions conquered by Muslims, it was acceptable in Islamic marital law for a Muslim male to marry Christian and Jєωιѕн females in southern Italy when under Islamic rule between the 8th and 11th centuries. In this case, most intermarriages were between Arab and Berber males from North Africa and the local Greek, Roman and Italian females of Sicily and southern Italy. Such intermarriages were particularly common in the Emirate of Sicily, where one writer visiting the place in the 970s expressed shock at how common it was in rural areas.

Okay, that tells us the Muslim law, but not how various Catholics reacted.  Were these Muslims very dark-skinned like today's African blacks?  That is the impression I'm getting.  When I hear about Muslims I usually picture Muslims of Iran and Iraq, I guess what you'd call Semitic Arabs.

What did people really think about all these Moors marrying white women in Italy and Spain at the time it was happening?  Was it seen as weird or normal?  Wikipedia says a traveling writer was in "shock" at how common it was but I don't have many sources to give me an idea of general public opinion except fiction, all of which is from centuries later.  For instance, the original source on which the play Othello was based was by an Italian named Cinthio, and unlike Shakespeare's play, where the moral is ambiguous, this version ends with Desdemona expressing regret for marrying a foreigner and disobeying her father -- the moral ultimately is that one should not marry outside one's race.

There is also the famous Renaissance story -- though playing off medieval tropes -- of the knight Roland or Orlando who is obsessed with a woman named Angelica.  She doesn't love any of the Christian knights though and takes pity on a wounded Muslim soldier.  When Orlando sees his lady-love pitching woo with the Muslim, he goes stark raving mad and begins a crazed rampage.  This story has been set to music over and over again in European opera, so you'd think that it rang some kind of chord.  However, since Angelica is pagan herself, it doesn't seem to have much relevance to how interracial marriages are seen in the Catholic Church.  If anything, Orlando should forget her and find himself a Catholic girl.

Back to Wiki, this section on Spain brings up my point that those who are in mixed marriages are in danger of becoming religiously tolerant.  They are talking about an early form of VII ecuмenism here:

"After the Reconquista, which was completed in 1492, most of the Moors were forced to either flee to Morocco or convert to Christianity. The ones who converted to Christianity were known as Moriscoes, and they were often persecuted by the Spanish Inquisition as suspects of heresy on the basis of the Limpieza de sangre ("Cleanliness of blood") doctrine, under which anti-miscegenation laws were implemented in the Iberian Peninsula.[136]

Anyone whose ancestors had miscegenated with the Moors or Jєωs were suspicious of secretly practicing Islam or Judaism, so were often particularly monitored by the Inquisition. "

Spain is a hotbed of contradiction when it comes to interracial marriages.  First it was like the meeting-place of Jєωs, Muslims and Catholics, a sort of interracial and interreligious utopia, and then apparently the Catholics began to lose ground or to feel threatened and the nation became obsessed with racial and spiritual purity.  

This duality is probably coming across in my own posts.  My tendency is to be fairly liberal on this subject.  If two Catholic people remain married and Catholic their whole lives, and raise their kids Catholic, that is an achievement no matter what race they are.  I don't think I would enter into such a marriage myself, nor do I feel entirely comfortable with it, but to each his own.  

But at the same time I am aware that there can be consequences to all of this race-mixing.  One of these consequences is that you can lose Catholic identity.  I have a book about this subject called All Can Be Saved by Stuart B. Schwartz, that talks a lot about ecuмenism among Spaniards at the time of the Inquisition.  It appears there really may be a parallel between incautious race-mixing and heresy.  But since the author of this book is Jєωιѕн I mistrust the information in it, ha ha.  

[Catholic Samurai]

What that really was about was trying to keep the Jєωιѕн and Muslim ideologies out of the Spanish populace. As I said, the formation of children is effected by the heritage they inherit from their parents. If a Catholic then married a converso who was formerly a Jєω or Moor and was insincere in their conversion then the children would doubtlessly be raised with an anti-catholic mindset insipired by the parent, and that mindset could transmit itself from one family to another through marriages of the children. This is proven to be true when you observe families of Jєωιѕн decent who develop an anti-catholic and liberal philosophy that runs for a century or two. That was certainly the case in post-reformation England when men of Jєωιѕн decent were allowed to marry into the nobility.

[Catholic Samurai]

Personally, I'll marry a girl as long as she is a Traditional Catholic with sound doctrine, a good personality, *isnt a princess*, and has a cultural background that compliments mine. She doesnt have to be Hispanic. But the kids are going to come out Hispanic because they'll be Mestizos. lol

[Catholic Samurai]

What that really was about was trying to keep the Jєωιѕн and Muslim ideologies out of the Spanish populace. As I said, the formation of children is effected by the heritage they inherit from their parents. If a Catholic then married a converso who was formerly a Jєω or Moor and was insincere in their conversion then the children would doubtlessly be raised with an anti-catholic mindset insipired by the parent, and that mindset could transmit itself from one family to another through marriages of the children. This is proven to be true when you observe families of Jєωιѕн decent who develop an anti-catholic and liberal philosophy that runs for a century or two. That was certainly the case in post-reformation England when men of Jєωιѕн decent were allowed to marry into the nobility.

The Spanish didnt have this problem with the Aztecs, though, because their culture was undergoing a total Catholic reformation. Superstitions may follow, but that happens all the time and in every culture, but in this case there was no mlitant anti-catholic philosophy present to infiltrate and sabotage Catholicization.

[Matthew]

This is the main reason why you see more mixed marriages among Europeans than among Africans and Europeans. The proof that religion is the main factor is the most common mixture among the Northerners is Dutch/German/English/and Scandinavian... all of those people are Protestants, while among Catholics you will find a mixture of Austrians/Czechs/Italians/Polish/French/Spanish/and Irish.

One detail you left out: German could go into EITHER group -- Germany didn't go Protestant OR Catholic in the 1500's -- it split.

My German ancestors (of which there are quite a few -- my Irish avatar notwithstanding), as well as my wife's, were Catholic Germans. At least one of my ancestors was a devout Catholic who lived in Germany in late 1800's.

Matthew

[Catholic Samurai]

This is the main reason why you see more mixed marriages among Europeans than among Africans and Europeans. The proof that religion is the main factor is the most common mixture among the Northerners is Dutch/German/English/and Scandinavian... all of those people are Protestants, while among Catholics you will find a mixture of Austrians/Czechs/Italians/Polish/French/Spanish/and Irish.

One detail you left out: German could go into EITHER group -- Germany didn't go Protestant OR Catholic in the 1500's -- it split.

My German ancestors (of which there are quite a few -- my Irish avatar notwithstanding), as well as my wife's, were Catholic Germans. At least one of my ancestors was a devout Catholic who lived in Germany in late 1800's.

Matthew

Yeah, I notice I did that after I came back to re-read my post (the cement dried by that time). I should have made a distinction between Northern German and Southern German. Sorry about that. But you know, Im half Austrian so Im not ignorant of that obvious fact.

[Telesphorus]

Remember there are lots of Protestants in southern Germany and some Catholic pockets in northern German.

For example, near Oldenburg and in a part of Thuringia.