Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Magdalene on January 19, 2007, 12:05:32 AM
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IS THIS TRUE?
"AMERICA NEEDS FATIMA"
A CULT USING THE FATIMA NAME
And typical of all cults
The America Needs Fatima campaign is wholly operated by an organization called The Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP), founded in Brazil by Professor Plinio Corrêa De Oliveira in 1960.
Dr. Plinio claimed to have a "private, prophetic charism" enabling him to look at a young man's face or photo and discern that the young man had "tao" (sometimes "tau"). The "tao" is considered to be a mark on the boy's soul put there by the Virgin Mary to select him as one of her "warrior monks" or "militants." Boys and young men possessing "tao" are told that to refuse this "vocation" is tantamount to condemning their own soul to hell. They are required to make vows of celibacy and obedience to TFP, a "vocation" higher than the vocation to married life or to the priesthood. To make them afraid to leave the group, stories are circulated throughout TFP of the horribly-violent, sudden deaths of ex-TFPers. Those who leave are called "apostates", even if they remain faithful Catholics. This entire recruitment procedure is in violation of Canon Law 219 prohibiting any coercion in choosing or remaining in any state of life.
Before his death on Oct. 3, 1995, Dr. Plinio often prophesied that he would see the battle of Armageddon within his own lifetime. His followers were kept in a constant state of agitation, expecting this cataclysmic event at any moment. The warrior monks are supposed to be key participants in Armageddon and the subsequent "Reign of Mary". This false prophet was treated a "living saint"; his followers would bow in his presence, revere his personal belongings and compose hymns honoring him and his mother. Some militants chant a litany to Donna Lucilla, Dr. Plinio's deceased mother, or sub-stitute the name of Donna Lucilla for Mary and the name of Plinio for Jesus while reciting the Hail Mary
Nevertheless, TFP seemed so dedicated to spreading the Catholic faith (in particular devotion to Our Lady of Fatima) and also to fighting communism that many of the finest and most devout Catholic families in Brazil fell for the outward appearance of orthodoxy and enrolled their sons in schools and training centers run by TFP in Brazil. The result was so disastrous that on April,18 1985 the NCBB (National Council of Brazilian Bishops) condemned the group and ordered Catholics to have nothing to do with it. The response of the group has been to claim that its anti-Communist stance prompted the bishops' opposition, and that the condemnation was just an "unsigned note." On the contrary: the condem-nation was written on the letterhead of the NCBB and published in several of Brazil's largest newspapers. It is the mis-leading teachings of the group and the damage it has done to Catholic families that prompted the bishops' warning, which characterized the group as a "cult of personality " (meaning that they are giving excessive or worshipful devotion to their leader) and also accused the group of "abusing the name of Holy Mary." The official nature of the notice was subse-quently confirmed by the Under-Secretary General of the Brazilian Conference, Fr. Valentini Netto on Dec. 8, 1995.
Meanwhile this group has spread to 25 countries and the same damage to souls and vocations is now becoming apparent in the US. Many good Catholics in this country have been misled into supporting TFP through one of its front campaigns, such as America Needs Fatima, which is currently the chief fund-raiser for the group. All moneys collected from the "free-will" offerings at the "Pilgrim Virgin" meetings go to TFP.
TFP cleverly organizes events that draw faithful, even prominent, Catholics into innocent association with the group. Photographs or endorsement letters are then produced to persuade other Catholics to lend their support or to convince them that TFP is a faithful Catholic group. But Catholics who have merely lost time or money in unknowingly supporting this cult are the lucky ones. Some families have lost their sons. Boys and young men who are selected for membership in the group soon learn to have contempt for their parents while also plying them with requests for money to support the work of the group. By demanding celibacy of lay members, the group robs these parents of grandchildren and robs the Church of strong Catholic husbands and fathers and of the Catholic children they would have produced.
Sometimes TFP recruits married men. They are instructed that their "tao" or "vocation" is a higher calling than their family life. The group makes heavy demands on their time. Observers and former members report that it is not un-usual for a married man to spend every weekend working full-time for TFP. If his wife objects, she will be told that she "does not have the grace" to understand the TFP mission.
The "spiritual formation" that TFP gives to children unwittingly placed in its care fosters anti-clericalism and con-tempt for their fellow Catholics. They are urged to receive daily communion, but have scant regard for the Mass. TFP families and militants frequently wait outside reciting their trademark, rapid-fire Rosaries and come into Mass just in time to receive communion. They call Catholics who faithfully assist at Mass "white heretics".
TFP exists, not to build up the body of Christ, but to perpetuate itself and further the self-aggrandizement of its leaders. Catholic youths who join TFP with the noble vision of defending of tradition, family and property end up separated from Catholic tradition, do not start families of their own and after the finest years of their young manhood are used up, find they have acquired no substantial property of their own. When they finally leave, often despairing, they are without money, education or marketable job experience. There is no doubt that this group is a destructive and insidious cult.
Question: I met some of the young men with the America Needs Fatima campaign. They were wholesome and sincere. How can you accuse such nice Catholics of being members of a cult?
Answer: TFPers are drawn from the "cream of the crop" of young Catholic men, well-brought-up and serious about their faith. Their own good qualities make them targets of the group's recruitment and their own sincere desire to serve God makes them vulnerable to the lure of the group. In no way am I saying that there is anything evil or flawed about the char-acter of the TFP rank and file. But they are trapped, believing that to leave is an act of apostasy that will endanger their souls. If the activities and mission of the group had genuine appeal to spiritually-inclined youths, it would not be necessary to manipulate them into joining or coerce them to make them stay. There are other legitimate Catholic groups that see no contradiction between promoting devotion to Mary while supporting traditional vocations to the priesthood or family life.
Question: What could possibly be wrong with traveling with a statue of Mary and gathering people to pray the Rosary?
Answer: Nothing. It is not the statue, the Rosary, or devotion to the Blessed Virgin that is at issue. But gathering people to pray the Rosary as a fund-raiser for a cult that is robbing the Church of vocations and secretly promoting the idolatrous admiration of a false prophet is indefensible.
Question: If this group is bad, why do I see them at Catholic conferences and Right-to-Life marches?
Answer: Where do you expect to find a cult group that wants to prey upon the best Catholic youths? Wouldn't you expect to find them at places and events where they can impress Catholic parents with how good they are? They are wolves in sheep's clothing, presenting a squeaky-clean front while hiding their real beliefs and objectives. - Matthew 7: 15.
Question: I have given money to America Needs Fatima and I feel totally betrayed on finding out what is really behind it. What should I do about it?
Answer: You can request that your donations be returned, though it is unlikely they will be. If the amount is substantial, you might consider suing them for false representation. They may settle with some individuals to avoid bad publicity. You might wish to channel your righteous indignation into warning other Catholics about them. Remember, this damaging group is wholly supported by faithful Catholics. Drying up their funding should severely curtail their operations.
Question: Even if they are a cult, couldn't Mary be using them for some good purpose?
Answer: Mary and Jesus do not "use" people. They invite our free and willing service. They are never behind false prophecy, lies, manipulation, and coercion. (For the scriptural view of a false prophet, see Deuteronomy 18: 20-22) Rather, this cult is using the Blessed Virgin and exploiting the devotion that other Catholics have toward her for their own ends. We will exhibit true devotion to Mary by putting an end to this group's advance in this country.
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Please provide a source for this article.
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Please provide a source for this article.
I got this from a website started by a guy who researches all the Catholic movements and Marian/Christ apparitions inorder to tell Catholics which movements and apparitions are true and which are not. He interviews alot of people in the movements.
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Please provide a source for this article.
I got this from a website started by a guy who researches all the Catholic movements and Marian/Christ apparitions inorder to tell Catholics which movements and apparitions are true and which are not. He interviews alot of people in the movements.
Have you got the URL for that?
There is a Britain Needs Fatima/TFP branch too, incidentally.
Clare.
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Below is what a guy named "Antonia" wrote on a different website than the one I got the first article from.
As for listing the website that I got the first article from, before I do that, I have to write a warning article concerning something on that website that could fool even the educated Catholics. I am a bit busy right now, so I will do that as soon as I can.
Anyway, here is what some other guy had to say about the TFP. I don't know if any of the stuff I posted on the TFP is true. I have been supporting them financially a lot of times so I wanted to see what people thought of these assertions (so that if they are true, then I can stop my support)
I'm writing this post to offer some information about the TFP group. It is a Brazilian organization, and it is kind of secretive, or at least discreet. There is conflicting information even here in Brazil about their beliefs and purpose.
All I can say is that this group is regarded as a far-right group, and that there is more to TFP then simply being a "catholic" group They are more like a political organization.
Although they are not a political party, they are certainly a group with a defined political (and social) ideology. And because of the content of their beliefs, they are seen as far-right wingers. (some see them as fascists, but I have not enough intel to make that assessment).
It is true however, that being catholic is part of their identity as a group, and that part of their set of beliefs is of a religious/spiritual nature. I believe that the members must all be catholics, that they attend Mass, but I have serious doubts about their being in full communion with the Church.
Yes, their views on the Family, for instance, correspond to that of the Church, because they are not liberals. But, for example, their social views can hardly be reconciled with the Church's social teaching, so they turn a blind eye to it. They are conservative in Liturgical matters, but I am not sure if they are in rebellion regarding Vatican II.
Their voice is almost not heard in the media, but they have links to one of the (rival) branches of the (former) Imperial House of Brazil (deposed in 1889). The entire Imperial Family is Catholic, but one sub-family of "claimants" is TFP, while the other has strong ties with he Hierarchy here in Rio
In São Paulo city, they also have TFP "altars", but I am not sure if those "altars" are Church altars or something else
Just before writing this post, I visited their website and I learned that there has recently been a judicial dispute regarding an election to their Board of Directors. According to the new Directors' website, one of the former Directors (Prince Bertrand), blamed the victory of the other group on a "conspiracy plotted by left wing catholics" and even complained about the "lack of action" of the Pope and the Holy See in dealing with them. I don't know if this information is true, but you see that there are rival factions within the organization, and perhaps not all those factions are in communion with the Church. (although all claim to be catholic).
My opinion is that they use the Chuch and their identity as catholics as a means to advancing their political aims and to create a bond. It is possible that they use the notion of fidelity to Church doctrine as a means to include their own teaching in the package. About what they do as a group, I don't know. They are an obscure group and do not have (or avoid) press coverage. The Hierachy doesn't condemn them explicitly but keeps distance from them.
I would keep distance from them too. There are safer ways of being conservative and catholic
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Welcome to CathInfo, Bernard, and thank you for the admonishment. You make a good point.
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TFP is deeply neoconny nad "blame Muslims for all evisl" type organization, I had thought of joining and rad many of their articles,etc....I got Sungenis to remove it from his site, as many of them were going against his BF stances.
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From page 181 of The Mouth Of The Lion, by Dr David Allen White, about the Diocese of Campos, Brazil:
Bishop de Castro Mayer made public his disassociation from his former colleague and friend Plinio Correa de Oliveira in 1984. Distance had been increasing between the two men since the early 1980's, the gulf widening as more and more rumors reached Dom Antonio's ears of peculiar activities and odd practices within the TFP. These activities and practices, again according to rumor, were said to be fully sanctioned by Plinio himself. The struggle in the Church had now driven a wedge between two friends who had fought side by side for the faith for fifty-five years. The personal cost to Bishop de Castro Mayer must have been great, the burden of sorrow heavy. In the midst of a struggle with the authorities of the Church he had loved and served for a lifetime, he now found himself forced to make an open declaration against the dear friend who had occupied a central role in his life for over half a century. Four of his diocesan priests chose to break with him as a result. They remained loyal to the TFP. Bishop de Castro Mayer would not back down. He believed the TFP had become harmful to the Church. He felt he had been used by the organization for its own purposes.
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And Bishop de Castro Mayer was no liberal!
Also, let us not forget the Litany to... Plinio Correa de Oliveira's mother:
Lady Lucilia, pray for us
Mother of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us
Mother of the Doctor of the Church, pray for us
Mother of our Father, pray for us
Mother of the Unspeakable, pray for us
Mother of all of us, pray for us
Mother of the coming centuries, pray for us
Mother of the Axiological Principle, pray for us
Mother of the Temperament of Synthesis, pray for us
Mother of all purity, pray for us
Mother of the Trans-sphere, pray for us
Mother of Seriousness, pray for us
Mother of the Counter-Revolution, pray for us
Restorer of Temperaments, pray for us
Source of Light, pray for us
Procreator of Innocence, pray for us
Preserver of Innocence, pray for us
Consoler of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us
Mediator of the Grand Retour, pray for us
Mediator of all our graces, pray for us
Dawn of the Kingdom of Mary, pray for us
Lady Lucilia of the smile, pray for us
Lady Lucilia of Flashes*, pray for us
Most beautiful flower of all, pray for us
Our refuge, pray for us
Our consoler, pray for us
Our help in the Bagarre, pray for us
Reason of our perseverance, pray for us
Vase of logic, pray for us
Vase of metaphysics, pray for us
Martyr of isolation, pray for us
Queen of serene suffering, pray for us
Queen of loveliness, pray for us
Queen of serenity, pray for us
Lady Lucilia, our Mother and Lady, help us
Lady Lucilia, our greatest mediator before the Virgin, help us
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"Mother of the temperment of Synthesis"??
In my experience, when groups start making their own saints, it's time to make a run for it!!!
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Clare, do you have a link to that litany or reference to where it came from? That is pretty weird and suspicious. The wording is so odd. Sounds more like a tie in to a New Age type thing .. and praying for the intercession of the professor's mother obviously it's just wrong.
I've been reading articles from TFP and TIA (Tradition in Action) for years now and notice that both include quite a bit of writing by Professor Correa de Oliveira. It does sound like something's wrong with them according to the background information.
I typically just like to read points of view encouraging modesty and more decorum in civilized society. And both sites have plenty of those articles.
I'd be interested in learning more.
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TFP is a cult.
That is all.
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If it's a cult, how safe are the works of Prof. Plinio on TIA?
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If it's a cult, how safe are the works of Prof. Plinio on TIA?
I certainly wouldn't take his word!
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Clare, do you have a link to that litany or reference to where it came from?
You can read more here (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb14.htm).
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If you listen to this interview with Fr. Tomas de Aquino, he mentions that the TFP were largely responsible for the agreement of Archbishop de Castro Meyer's order with Rome. He also says that it was a cult and that Dr. Plino was "abnormal."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be
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If Bishop Castro Mayer thought it was a dangerous cult, then I'll have to agree with him.
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Not sure if this is the link that the OP mentioned, but it is a copy of the information.
I know nothing about the company Unity Publishing Inc (who is behind it), but their site says they investigate apparitions, etc.
http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/FatimaCult.html
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That same site also advertises an article on:
Martin Luther & Guadalupe: The Story of Guadalupe and its connection to Martin Luther
:thinking:
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Why then do SSPX laity support them? Whilst Ireland Needs Fatima/TFP are associated with the Institute Christ the King, some SSPX laity here support the Ireland Needs Fatima/TFP.
I have a strong dislike of Ireland Needs Fatima/TFP. A few years ago I used to get their literature then found out more about them and asked them to stop sending me literature.
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It's good to warn people about them though. Once I noted Renew Campaign linking material from them. I have no idea if 'Renew' still exists but they were warned about the TFP. I just glanced to see if Renew still exists and their website is gone. Perhaps it has disbanded? It was similar to the Christian Solidarity party. Lobby groups have come and gone in Ireland but that is another topic.
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A few years ago a "Pilgrimage of Grace" had an exchange with a TFP organiser on the Fisheaters forum. They are a Neo Con group that are not deserving of support.
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If you listen to this interview with Fr. Tomas de Aquino, he mentions that the TFP were largely responsible for the agreement of Archbishop de Castro Meyer's order with Rome. He also says that it was a cult and that Dr. Plino was "abnormal."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be
Many thanks for sharing this interview.
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The American TFP does a lot of campaigning for help in their protests of
various offensive movies, plays, art exhibits and that sort of things that
are against Our Lady or the teachings of the Church.
The American TFP is basically NovusOrdo, but the guy running the whole
affair is reputedly an Eastern Catholic. So he avoids any question of his
affinity to the TLM vs. Vat.II.
They run home visitations of the pilgrim Virgin Mary statue, and when
she arrives, along with her comes "the basket" that is a most important
part of the visit. That's where you put your prayer notes and things. Of
course, if anyone has a 'donation' it should go in there. When they come
around to pick up the statue they are most concerned about the basket,
too. It is ceremoniously carried out to the waiting vehicle, a sort of
procession with Our Lady bringing up the rear. First things first, you know.
They do not like to talk about the Collegial Consecration of Russia or the
conversion of Russia. But if you press them on that they finally come
down to saying that it was done by JPII in either 1982 or 1984, I don't
recall what their latest version is. So they are among the FALSE FRIENDS
of Fatima, who equally work to dilute and obscure the message.
The poor young men who volunteer for demonstrations are led to stand
around repeating like robots in a droning, low voice, "Tradition ... Family ...
Property ...[pause]... Tradition ... Family ... Property ..." etc. There are
videos on YouTube showing them attacked by sodomites and pelted with
trash thrown from passing cars.
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I believe TFP is not as bad as rumours say it is. I believe those rumours were
from the agents of hell. The agents of hell are master strategists.
1) The liberal mass media never mentions the TFP, not even includes them in any photo.
If the TFP were so bad, why should the mass media avoids mentioning it ???
What the mass media hates usually are servants of Our Lady, don't you agree ?
2) The Vatican never condemned any writing of the TFP. If the TFP were so bad,
their writings must be full of heresies. But that's not the reality.
3) The TFP does a lot of good works for Our Lady. Our Saviour taught us to judge a tree
by its fruits. If the TFP were really so bad, why is it doing so much good work?
Those are my personal humble opinions. Thanks.
Statistica
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I believe TFP is not as bad as rumours say it is. I believe those rumours were
from the agents of hell. The agents of hell are master strategists.
1) The liberal mass media never mentions the TFP, not even includes them in any photo.
If the TFP were so bad, why should the mass media avoids mentioning it ???
What the mass media hates usually are servants of Our Lady, don't you agree ?
2) The Vatican never condemned any writing of the TFP. If the TFP were so bad,
their writings must be full of heresies. But that's not the reality.
3) The TFP does a lot of good works for Our Lady. Our Saviour taught us to judge a tree
by its fruits. If the TFP were really so bad, why is it doing so much good work?
Those are my personal humble opinions. Thanks.
Statistica
Agreed. I know quit few TFP members. They are no more a cult than the CMRI or any other Traditional group that could be labeled as a "cult" by its enemies. That "cult" slur is one of the most common against any group.
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TFP is a cult.
That is all.
Precisely. From what I recall of my exposure to them some years ago, they really like to separate young people from their families - especially Traditional Catholic families.
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TFP is a cult.
That is all.
Precisely. From what I recall of my exposure to them some years ago, they really like to separate young people from their families - especially Traditional Catholic families.
They do nothing of the sort.
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You need only do Google searches about
CMRI cult, SSPV cult, SSPX cult etc. to find people going after all these groups as cults.
While I don't agree with their FFSP-type of position, they're no more of a cult than other Traditional groups. They're a little over the top with their "medievalism", but the same could be said of the SSPX ... there was a vocal group at Winona devoted to this notion of building a "medieval city".
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TFP is a cult.
That is all.
Precisely. From what I recall of my exposure to them some years ago, they really like to separate young people from their families - especially Traditional Catholic families.
Those are what they like to say about the TFP because they couldn't find any other
fault in them, nor could they find any heresy in their publications.
Therefore they have to pick on little things, or just make up lies.
Regarding the rumour that Dr Plinio treated himself like a god:
If Dr Plinio was such a proud man that he desired followers to worship himself,
then that kind of attitude should have been reflected in his writings and speeches.
He would have always tried to promote his own greatness, to glorify himself , to let
more people admire and worship himself.
But the reality is his writings and speeches only focus on anti communism,
crisis of the Church, love for God and Our Lady, and Fatima.
Where did you find any self promotion and self glorifying in his writings ???
Besides, Dr Plinio gave up marriage to serve the Church. Is this the
behaviour of a selfish man ??
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At one point, in Brazil, they started to take on a decidedly anti-clerical attitude, but that's because the Brazilian hierarchy had become so thoroughly infested with Modernism. At some point, TFP was infiltrated by various liberal / modernist forces, and a new spin-off group, the Heralds of the Gospel, took over the TFP and won the right in court to take the TFP's symbols and insignia and trademarks; it's now a thoroughly modernist organization operating with the complete blessing of the Novus Ordo hierarchy.
TFP sister groups in other countries don't have any legal / formal ties to one another.
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Please, tell me, is this cult like? :stare:
Lady Lucilia, pray for us
Mother of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us
Mother of the Doctor of the Church, pray for us
Mother of our Father, pray for us
Mother of the Unspeakable, pray for us
Mother of all of us, pray for us
Mother of the coming centuries, pray for us
Mother of the Axiological Principle, pray for us
Mother of the Temperament of Synthesis, pray for us
Mother of all purity, pray for us
Mother of the Trans-sphere, pray for us
Mother of Seriousness, pray for us
Mother of the Counter-Revolution, pray for us
Restorer of Temperaments, pray for us
Source of Light, pray for us
Procreator of Innocence, pray for us
Preserver of Innocence, pray for us
Consoler of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us
Mediator of the Grand Retour, pray for us
Mediator of all our graces, pray for us
Dawn of the Kingdom of Mary, pray for us
Lady Lucilia of the smile, pray for us
Lady Lucilia of Flashes*, pray for us
Most beautiful flower of all, pray for us
Our refuge, pray for us
Our consoler, pray for us
Our help in the Bagarre, pray for us
Reason of our perseverance, pray for us
Vase of logic, pray for us
Vase of metaphysics, pray for us
Martyr of isolation, pray for us
Queen of serene suffering, pray for us
Queen of loveliness, pray for us
Queen of serenity, pray for us
Lady Lucilia, our Mother and Lady, help us
Lady Lucilia, our greatest mediator before the Virgin, help us
I'll answer that one for you.
YES!
"Lady Lucilia" is the mother of Dr. Plino de Olivera, the founder of the group.
Ladislaus, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.
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TFP is a cult.
That is all.
Precisely. From what I recall of my exposure to them some years ago, they really like to separate young people from their families - especially Traditional Catholic families.
Yeah, because they run a boarding school.
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Ladislaus, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.
Yeah, because you have no real knowledge of the subject. This "litany" thing was penned by a couple of "cooperators" of TFP in the 1970s. When Plinio caught wind of it, he immediately banned it ... because he took it as an insult. This was obviously written tongue-in-cheek ... as a joke. In fact, it reads like a sarcastic rip against Plinio's mother, and against Plinio himself vis-a-vis his devotion to and attachment to his mother. Please turn on your brain and look at the phrases used ... clearly pretentiously grand-sounding yet utterly meaningless "attributes".
Use your common sense. This litany reads like a joke, a prank composed by a couple of students ... like a frat thing.
As I pointed out, the only reason the group was eventually denounced by Bishop de Castro Mayer was because they became anti-clerical; they became anti-clerical as a result of constant run-ins they had with the modernist Brazilian hierarchy.
Don't be stupid.
I've written similarly sarcastic stuff that was taken seriously, an essay which used all kinds of nonsensical phrases to just rip on the Novus Ordo; my brother submitted it to an essay contest at his Novus Ordo school and won first place.
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Ladislaus, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.
Yeah, because you have no real knowledge of the subject. This "litany" thing was penned by a couple of "cooperators" of TFP in the 1970s. When Plinio caught wind of it, he immediately banned it ... because he took it as an insult. This was obviously written tongue-in-cheek ... as a joke. In fact, it reads like a sarcastic rip against Plinio's mother, and against Plinio himself vis-a-vis his devotion to and attachment to his mother. Please turn on your brain and look at the phrases used ... clearly pretentiously grand-sounding yet utterly meaningless "attributes".
Use your common sense. This litany reads like a joke, a prank composed by a couple of students ... like a frat thing.
As I pointed out, the only reason the group was eventually denounced by Bishop de Castro Mayer was because they became anti-clerical; they became anti-clerical as a result of constant run-ins they had with the modernist Brazilian hierarchy.
Don't be stupid.
I've written similarly sarcastic stuff that was taken seriously, an essay which used all kinds of nonsensical phrases to just rip on the Novus Ordo; my brother submitted it to an essay contest at his Novus Ordo school and won first place.
Agree.
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Cardinal Alfons Stickler:
It was a surprise to receive your letter presenting certain slanderous voices against the TFP as a novelty--as if I were not sufficiently informed. Actually I am very much aware of such gossip. Moreover, I have also known the TFP representatives here in Rome very well for nearly two decades.
Before demonstrating any support for the TFP I investigated with extreme care and diligence the basis of rumors against it. I found no proofs to corroborate such whisper campaigns. At the same time, the TFP has always answered such accusations convincingly. Mention of such refutations in your letter is conspicuously absent.
Allow me to give you an example of such baseless attacks. A year ago I was arduously solicited by a Spanish lady to pronounce myself against the TFP in light of one of these "family cases" that you mention in your letter. The fact is that the TFP member, against whom she had opened a lawsuit, won the court case hands down. Not only was the judge's decision clear, but a certain ecclesiastical authority that had heedlessly supported the attack against the TFP subsequently lost his position.
In addition, the disgrunteld families--a phenomenon not uncommon in the past with many Catholic Orders, Congregations or Groups, and which continues still today--are a very small part of the families who have sons in the TFP.
Based on my scrutiny of the person of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira and his work, after his death I was pleased to celebrate a Solemn Requiem Mass in Santo Spirito in Sassia near the Vatican for the repose of his soul.
With no less pleasure I wrote the preface to Prof. Roberto de Mattei's biography of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira, Il crociato del secolo XX. Prof. de Mattei, besides docuŠ¼enting his work abundantly, had a personal relationship with Prof. Correa de Oliveira for more than twenty years, visiting him in Brazil many times. It is my hope that this work, already published in Italy and France, be also printed in the United States. Both the author and I have received compliments for it from ecclesiastical authorities.
This hearsay of which you speak does not surprise me. If you know the story of St. John Bosco well, you certainly are aware of the numerous unjust and baseless criticisms he and his work had to endure. As have many other benevolent figures and groups in the Church. The same goes for Plinio Correa de Oliveira and his work.
But what really leaves me bewildered and sad is that such false witness takes place in circles that should be united and concentrated on the defense of our great common cause of the Church, rather than wasting energies thus.
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Father Bolduc warned me about the TFP when I asked him about it. If my memory properly serves me, he also described it as a cult.
Regarding the "litany," it's been cited here before in other threads by others. I'm sorry if that was just a joke written by a couple of disrespectful students.
Ladislaus, friend here. No need to throw ad hominems at me.
Father Bolduc was a saintly man, and if he thought they were rotten, then it's a pretty good bet, considering how knowledgable he was, and how many, many people he knew, that he was being honest, and I'd lean towards what he said on the matter.
Others that had dealings with told me that if you didn't have any money to give them, you were basically fodder to them. If you were rich, however, they'd do anything they could to get your money.
Father Bolduc warned us about, as well as a couple people that had close dealings with them, including one man who had a vocation, but due to the anti-clerical attitude of the TFP, he ended up basically being one of their slaves and being too old to join an order once he woke up and figured out what their real agenda is. Anytime someone would put anything in the back of Church that was theirs (which people would have to get his permission to put back there, and usually didn't if it were from TFP) he would toss it right into the garbage bin.
I maintain that they're a cult, and I won't back down on that much, but the litany I was unaware was a spoof. Knowing what I know about the TFP, it seemed plausable enough and I do apologize for believing that it was actually something they believed and not a spoof like it is. But, now I know, and thanks for bringing that to my attention. It still doesn't change what I already know about them.
Also, you read some of their agendas, they're neo-cons, and it's actually sickening to me some of the stupidity of the stuff they put out. Here are some examples.
https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/America-Needs-Fatima/protests-public-blasphemy.html
These pant-clad ladies in the pictures here, are from the TFP. They're not traditional by any stretch of the imagination, except that they still believe in Fatima, which is not uncommon for many novus ordo-ites.
Here's what the novus ordo bishops are saying about them
https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/America-Needs-Fatima/group-a-clergy.html
Sending commendations to George W Bush and John Ashcroft?
http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/letters-of-commendation-sent.html
The ones performing the great "psywar" as they put it, is the CIA and their buddies, and the radical Islamists are being trained and used by OUR government, but the TFP thinks otherwise:
http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/tfp-analyzes-a-psywar-against-order.html
"We are not hated for our defects but for our qualities."
Boy they're really towing the line here.
http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/the-american-tfp-statement-decries-qcowardly-acts-of-terrorismq.html
Come on, :stare: I know enough about them to know what they're about. I'm not "being stupid."
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Father Bolduc warned me about the TFP when I asked him about it. If my memory properly serves me, he also described it as a cult.
Regarding the "litany," it's been cited here before in other threads by others. I'm sorry if that was just a joke written by a couple of disrespectful students.
Ladislaus, friend here. No need to throw ad hominems at me.
Father Bolduc was a saintly man, and if he thought they were rotten, then it's a pretty good bet, considering how knowledgable he was, and how many, many people he knew, that he was being honest, and I'd lean towards what he said on the matter.
Others that had dealings with told me that if you didn't have any money to give them, you were basically fodder to them. If you were rich, however, they'd do anything they could to get your money.
Father Bolduc warned us about, as well as a couple people that had close dealings with them, including one man who had a vocation, but due to the anti-clerical attitude of the TFP, he ended up basically being one of their slaves and being too old to join an order once he woke up and figured out what their real agenda is. Anytime someone would put anything in the back of Church that was theirs (which people would have to get his permission to put back there, and usually didn't if it were from TFP) he would toss it right into the garbage bin.
I maintain that they're a cult, and I won't back down on that much, but the litany I was unaware was a spoof. Knowing what I know about the TFP, it seemed plausable enough and I do apologize for believing that it was actually something they believed and not a spoof like it is. But, now I know, and thanks for bringing that to my attention. It still doesn't change what I already know about them.
Also, you read some of their agendas, they're neo-cons, and it's actually sickening to me some of the stupidity of the stuff they put out. Here are some examples.
https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/America-Needs-Fatima/protests-public-blasphemy.html
These pant-clad ladies in the pictures here, are from the TFP. They're not traditional by any stretch of the imagination, except that they still believe in Fatima, which is not uncommon for many novus ordo-ites.
Here's what the novus ordo bishops are saying about them
https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/America-Needs-Fatima/group-a-clergy.html
Sending commendations to George W Bush and John Ashcroft?
http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/letters-of-commendation-sent.html
The ones performing the great "psywar" as they put it, is the CIA and their buddies, and the radical Islamists are being trained and used by OUR government, but the TFP thinks otherwise:
http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/tfp-analyzes-a-psywar-against-order.html
"We are not hated for our defects but for our qualities."
Boy they're really towing the line here.
http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/the-american-tfp-statement-decries-qcowardly-acts-of-terrorismq.html
Come on, :stare: I know enough about them to know what they're about. I'm not "being stupid."
What you said allows me to understand more about you, not anything else.
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Cardinal Alfons Stickler:
It was a surprise to receive your letter presenting certain slanderous voices against the TFP as a novelty--as if I were not sufficiently informed. Actually I am very much aware of such gossip. Moreover, I have also known the TFP representatives here in Rome very well for nearly two decades.
Before demonstrating any support for the TFP I investigated with extreme care and diligence the basis of rumors against it. I found no proofs to corroborate such whisper campaigns. At the same time, the TFP has always answered such accusations convincingly. Mention of such refutations in your letter is conspicuously absent.
Allow me to give you an example of such baseless attacks. A year ago I was arduously solicited by a Spanish lady to pronounce myself against the TFP in light of one of these "family cases" that you mention in your letter. The fact is that the TFP member, against whom she had opened a lawsuit, won the court case hands down. Not only was the judge's decision clear, but a certain ecclesiastical authority that had heedlessly supported the attack against the TFP subsequently lost his position.
In addition, the disgrunteld families--a phenomenon not uncommon in the past with many Catholic Orders, Congregations or Groups, and which continues still today--are a very small part of the families who have sons in the TFP.
Based on my scrutiny of the person of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira and his work, after his death I was pleased to celebrate a Solemn Requiem Mass in Santo Spirito in Sassia near the Vatican for the repose of his soul.
With no less pleasure I wrote the preface to Prof. Roberto de Mattei's biography of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira, Il crociato del secolo XX. Prof. de Mattei, besides docuŠ¼enting his work abundantly, had a personal relationship with Prof. Correa de Oliveira for more than twenty years, visiting him in Brazil many times. It is my hope that this work, already published in Italy and France, be also printed in the United States. Both the author and I have received compliments for it from ecclesiastical authorities.
This hearsay of which you speak does not surprise me. If you know the story of St. John Bosco well, you certainly are aware of the numerous unjust and baseless criticisms he and his work had to endure. As have many other benevolent figures and groups in the Church. The same goes for Plinio Correa de Oliveira and his work.
But what really leaves me bewildered and sad is that such false witness takes place in circles that should be united and concentrated on the defense of our great common cause of the Church, rather than wasting energies thus.
Thank you for the post.
Besides Cardinal Stickler, there are many other priests who praised the publications of TFP--
Archbishop Nienstedt, Cardinal Estevez, Bishop R de la Barra, etc.
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Father Bolduc warned me about the TFP when I asked him about it. If my memory properly serves me, he also described it as a cult.
Well, my guess is that Father Bolduc heard and read the same stuff that's been out there.
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Ladislaus, friend here. No need to throw ad hominems at me.
I apologize for that, pft. I get upset because you were spreading the usual calumnies about TFP without any real first-hand experience.
Also, you read some of their agendas, they're neo-cons, and it's actually sickening to me some of the stupidity of the stuff they put out. Here are some examples.
I know many TFP members quite well. They are NOT neo-cons. In fact, they are monarchists if anything. They have close ties with the deposed Brazilian monarchy. They engage in these public protests for a variety of reasons:
1) they're often met with hostility at the protests, and they feel that it builds character ... if you recall they are imbued with this "warrior" mentality
2) they like to engage in public events in order to spread awareness about the existence of the group
They are actually monarchists and medievalists ... and have no illusions about the Masonic origins of the United States and its form of government, but despite that feel a duty of patriotism.
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http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/the-american-tfp-statement-decries-qcowardly-acts-of-terrorismq.html
Come on, :stare: I know enough about them to know what they're about. I'm not "being stupid."
No, you really don't know enough about them. I can assure you that every single member of TFP that I've ever met believes that 9/11 was an inside job. They're caught in a bit of a dilemma, and you'll find this with a lot of Traditional groups. They try to be "good citizens" and do their "civic duty" and want to encourage and instill a sense of "patriotism" (which is, taken in isolation, a virtue after all), and yet they're conflicted by the fact that our current government is corrupt. I know many Traditional priests who display the Masonic U.S. flag inside the Catholic sanctuary. I'll bet that Father Bolduc was one of those as well.
You had the same debate raging at the SSPX seminary in Winona. You had a large group of French monarchists who were constantly battling with the American-born seminarians. You had people with opinions that ranged from wanting to denounce the entire American government as illegitimate to those who wanted to practically canonize the "Founding Fathers".
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http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/the-american-tfp-statement-decries-qcowardly-acts-of-terrorismq.html
Come on, :stare: I know enough about them to know what they're about. I'm not "being stupid."
No, you really don't know enough about them. I can assure you that every single member of TFP that I've ever met believes that 9/11 was an inside job. They're caught in a bit of a dilemma, and you'll find this with a lot of Traditional groups. They try to be "good citizens" and do their "civic duty" and want to encourage and instill a sense of "patriotism" (which is, taken in isolation, a virtue after all), and yet they're conflicted by the fact that our current government is corrupt. I know many Traditional priests who display the Masonic U.S. flag inside the Catholic sanctuary. I'll bet that Father Bolduc was one of those as well.
You had the same debate raging at the SSPX seminary in Winona. You had a large group of French monarchists who were constantly battling with the American-born seminarians. You had people with opinions that ranged from wanting to denounce the entire American government as illegitimate to those who wanted to practically canonize the "Founding Fathers".
Yes, because Father Bolduc was a military veteran, and was actually a translator for Elvis in Germany. He believed the Islam thing, too, but then we have a prominent JBSer (and they also believe this stuff, too) that is one of the "debunkers" at our church as well.
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Yes, because Father Bolduc was a military veteran, and was actually a translator for Elvis in Germany. He believed the Islam thing, too, but then we have a prominent JBSer (and they also believe this stuff, too) that is one of the "debunkers" at our church as well.
And my only point there was that this kindof thing doesn't disqualify someone from being a good Catholic. You had used this as a way of attacking TFP.