Author Topic: America Needs Fatima/TFP (Read 15530 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #30 on:** May 27, 2014, 08:43:16 AM »

At one point, in Brazil, they started to take on a decidedly anti-clerical attitude, but that's because the Brazilian hierarchy had become so thoroughly infested with Modernism. At some point, TFP was infiltrated by various liberal / modernist forces, and a new spin-off group, the Heralds of the Gospel, took over the TFP and won the right in court to take the TFP's symbols and insignia and trademarks; it's now a thoroughly modernist organization operating with the complete blessing of the Novus Ordo hierarchy.

TFP sister groups in other countries don't have any legal / formal ties to one another.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #31 on:** May 27, 2014, 09:59:27 AM »

Please, tell me, is this cult like? :stare:

Lady Lucilia, pray for us
Mother of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us
Mother of the Doctor of the Church, pray for us
Mother of our Father, pray for us
Mother of the Unspeakable, pray for us
Mother of all of us, pray for us
Mother of the coming centuries, pray for us
Mother of the Axiological Principle, pray for us
Mother of the Temperament of Synthesis, pray for us
Mother of all purity, pray for us
Mother of the Trans-sphere, pray for us
Mother of Seriousness, pray for us
Mother of the Counter-Revolution, pray for us
Restorer of Temperaments, pray for us
Source of Light, pray for us
Procreator of Innocence, pray for us
Preserver of Innocence, pray for us
Consoler of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us
Mediator of the Grand Retour, pray for us
Mediator of all our graces, pray for us
Dawn of the Kingdom of Mary, pray for us
Lady Lucilia of the smile, pray for us
Lady Lucilia of Flashes*, pray for us
Most beautiful flower of all, pray for us
Our refuge, pray for us
Our consoler, pray for us
Our help in the Bagarre, pray for us
Reason of our perseverance, pray for us
Vase of logic, pray for us
Vase of metaphysics, pray for us
Martyr of isolation, pray for us
Queen of serene suffering, pray for us
Queen of loveliness, pray for us
Queen of serenity, pray for us
Lady Lucilia, our Mother and Lady, help us
Lady Lucilia, our greatest mediator before the Virgin, help us

I'll answer that one for you.

YES!

"Lady Lucilia" is the mother of Dr. Plino de Olivera, the founder of the group.

Ladislaus, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.

ClarkSmith · « **Reply #32 on:** May 27, 2014, 12:12:53 PM »

Quote from: ultrarigorist

Quote from: parentsfortruth
TFP is a cult.

That is all.

Precisely. From what I recall of my exposure to them some years ago, they really like to separate young people from their families - especially Traditional Catholic families.

Yeah, because they run a boarding school.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #33 on:** May 27, 2014, 01:32:50 PM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Ladislaus, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.

Yeah, because you have no real knowledge of the subject. This "litany" thing was penned by a couple of "cooperators" of TFP in the 1970s. When Plinio caught wind of it, he immediately banned it ... because he took it as an insult. This was obviously written tongue-in-cheek ... as a joke. In fact, it reads like a sarcastic rip against Plinio's mother, and against Plinio himself vis-a-vis his devotion to and attachment to his mother. Please turn on your brain and look at the phrases used ... clearly pretentiously grand-sounding yet utterly meaningless "attributes".

Use your common sense. This litany reads like a joke, a prank composed by a couple of students ... like a frat thing.

As I pointed out, the only reason the group was eventually denounced by Bishop de Castro Mayer was because they became anti-clerical; they became anti-clerical as a result of constant run-ins they had with the modernist Brazilian hierarchy.

Don't be stupid.

I've written similarly sarcastic stuff that was taken seriously, an essay which used all kinds of nonsensical phrases to just rip on the Novus Ordo; my brother submitted it to an essay contest at his Novus Ordo school and won first place.

statistica · « **Reply #34 on:** May 28, 2014, 01:08:55 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: parentsfortruth
Ladislaus, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.

Yeah, because you have no real knowledge of the subject. This "litany" thing was penned by a couple of "cooperators" of TFP in the 1970s. When Plinio caught wind of it, he immediately banned it ... because he took it as an insult. This was obviously written tongue-in-cheek ... as a joke. In fact, it reads like a sarcastic rip against Plinio's mother, and against Plinio himself vis-a-vis his devotion to and attachment to his mother. Please turn on your brain and look at the phrases used ... clearly pretentiously grand-sounding yet utterly meaningless "attributes".

Use your common sense. This litany reads like a joke, a prank composed by a couple of students ... like a frat thing.

As I pointed out, the only reason the group was eventually denounced by Bishop de Castro Mayer was because they became anti-clerical; they became anti-clerical as a result of constant run-ins they had with the modernist Brazilian hierarchy.

Don't be stupid.

I've written similarly sarcastic stuff that was taken seriously, an essay which used all kinds of nonsensical phrases to just rip on the Novus Ordo; my brother submitted it to an essay contest at his Novus Ordo school and won first place.

Agree.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #35 on:** May 28, 2014, 09:43:26 AM »

Cardinal Alfons Stickler:

Quote

It was a surprise to receive your letter presenting certain slanderous voices against the TFP as a novelty--as if I were not sufficiently informed. Actually I am very much aware of such gossip. Moreover, I have also known the TFP representatives here in Rome very well for nearly two decades.

Before demonstrating any support for the TFP I investigated with extreme care and diligence the basis of rumors against it. I found no proofs to corroborate such whisper campaigns. At the same time, the TFP has always answered such accusations convincingly. Mention of such refutations in your letter is conspicuously absent.

Allow me to give you an example of such baseless attacks. A year ago I was arduously solicited by a Spanish lady to pronounce myself against the TFP in light of one of these "family cases" that you mention in your letter. The fact is that the TFP member, against whom she had opened a lawsuit, won the court case hands down. Not only was the judge's decision clear, but a certain ecclesiastical authority that had heedlessly supported the attack against the TFP subsequently lost his position.

In addition, the disgrunteld families--a phenomenon not uncommon in the past with many Catholic Orders, Congregations or Groups, and which continues still today--are a very small part of the families who have sons in the TFP.

Based on my scrutiny of the person of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira and his work, after his death I was pleased to celebrate a Solemn Requiem Mass in Santo Spirito in Sassia near the Vatican for the repose of his soul.

With no less pleasure I wrote the preface to Prof. Roberto de Mattei's biography of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira, Il crociato del secolo XX. Prof. de Mattei, besides docuмenting his work abundantly, had a personal relationship with Prof. Correa de Oliveira for more than twenty years, visiting him in Brazil many times. It is my hope that this work, already published in Italy and France, be also printed in the United States. Both the author and I have received compliments for it from ecclesiastical authorities.

This hearsay of which you speak does not surprise me. If you know the story of St. John Bosco well, you certainly are aware of the numerous unjust and baseless criticisms he and his work had to endure. As have many other benevolent figures and groups in the Church. The same goes for Plinio Correa de Oliveira and his work.

But what really leaves me bewildered and sad is that such false witness takes place in circles that should be united and concentrated on the defense of our great common cause of the Church, rather than wasting energies thus.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #36 on:** May 29, 2014, 01:58:04 AM »

Father Bolduc warned me about the TFP when I asked him about it. If my memory properly serves me, he also described it as a cult.

Regarding the "litany," it's been cited here before in other threads by others. I'm sorry if that was just a joke written by a couple of disrespectful students.

Ladislaus, friend here. No need to throw ad hominems at me.

Father Bolduc was a saintly man, and if he thought they were rotten, then it's a pretty good bet, considering how knowledgable he was, and how many, many people he knew, that he was being honest, and I'd lean towards what he said on the matter.

Others that had dealings with told me that if you didn't have any money to give them, you were basically fodder to them. If you were rich, however, they'd do anything they could to get your money.

Father Bolduc warned us about, as well as a couple people that had close dealings with them, including one man who had a vocation, but due to the anti-clerical attitude of the TFP, he ended up basically being one of their slaves and being too old to join an order once he woke up and figured out what their real agenda is. Anytime someone would put anything in the back of Church that was theirs (which people would have to get his permission to put back there, and usually didn't if it were from TFP) he would toss it right into the garbage bin.

I maintain that they're a cult, and I won't back down on that much, but the litany I was unaware was a spoof. Knowing what I know about the TFP, it seemed plausable enough and I do apologize for believing that it was actually something they believed and not a spoof like it is. But, now I know, and thanks for bringing that to my attention. It still doesn't change what I already know about them.

Also, you read some of their agendas, they're neo-cons, and it's actually sickening to me some of the stupidity of the stuff they put out. Here are some examples.

https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/America-Needs-Fatima/protests-public-blasphemy.html

These pant-clad ladies in the pictures here, are from the TFP. They're not traditional by any stretch of the imagination, except that they still believe in Fatima, which is not uncommon for many novus ordo-ites.

Here's what the novus ordo bishops are saying about them

https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/America-Needs-Fatima/group-a-clergy.html

Sending commendations to George W Bush and John Ashcroft?

http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/letters-of-commendation-sent.html

The ones performing the great "psywar" as they put it, is the CIA and their buddies, and the radical Islamists are being trained and used by OUR government, but the TFP thinks otherwise:

http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/tfp-analyzes-a-psywar-against-order.html

"We are not hated for our defects but for our qualities."

Boy they're really towing the line here.

http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/the-american-tfp-statement-decries-qcowardly-acts-of-terrorismq.html

Come on, :stare: I know enough about them to know what they're about. I'm not "being stupid."

statistica · « **Reply #37 on:** May 29, 2014, 04:13:17 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Father Bolduc warned me about the TFP when I asked him about it. If my memory properly serves me, he also described it as a cult.

Regarding the "litany," it's been cited here before in other threads by others. I'm sorry if that was just a joke written by a couple of disrespectful students.

Ladislaus, friend here. No need to throw ad hominems at me.

Father Bolduc was a saintly man, and if he thought they were rotten, then it's a pretty good bet, considering how knowledgable he was, and how many, many people he knew, that he was being honest, and I'd lean towards what he said on the matter.

Others that had dealings with told me that if you didn't have any money to give them, you were basically fodder to them. If you were rich, however, they'd do anything they could to get your money.

Father Bolduc warned us about, as well as a couple people that had close dealings with them, including one man who had a vocation, but due to the anti-clerical attitude of the TFP, he ended up basically being one of their slaves and being too old to join an order once he woke up and figured out what their real agenda is. Anytime someone would put anything in the back of Church that was theirs (which people would have to get his permission to put back there, and usually didn't if it were from TFP) he would toss it right into the garbage bin.

I maintain that they're a cult, and I won't back down on that much, but the litany I was unaware was a spoof. Knowing what I know about the TFP, it seemed plausable enough and I do apologize for believing that it was actually something they believed and not a spoof like it is. But, now I know, and thanks for bringing that to my attention. It still doesn't change what I already know about them.

Also, you read some of their agendas, they're neo-cons, and it's actually sickening to me some of the stupidity of the stuff they put out. Here are some examples.

https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/America-Needs-Fatima/protests-public-blasphemy.html

These pant-clad ladies in the pictures here, are from the TFP. They're not traditional by any stretch of the imagination, except that they still believe in Fatima, which is not uncommon for many novus ordo-ites.

Here's what the novus ordo bishops are saying about them

https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/America-Needs-Fatima/group-a-clergy.html

Sending commendations to George W Bush and John Ashcroft?

http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/letters-of-commendation-sent.html

The ones performing the great "psywar" as they put it, is the CIA and their buddies, and the radical Islamists are being trained and used by OUR government, but the TFP thinks otherwise:

http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/tfp-analyzes-a-psywar-against-order.html

"We are not hated for our defects but for our qualities."

Boy they're really towing the line here.

http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/the-american-tfp-statement-decries-qcowardly-acts-of-terrorismq.html

Come on, :stare: I know enough about them to know what they're about. I'm not "being stupid."

What you said allows me to understand more about you, not anything else.

statistica · « **Reply #38 on:** May 29, 2014, 04:26:31 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Cardinal Alfons Stickler:

Quote
It was a surprise to receive your letter presenting certain slanderous voices against the TFP as a novelty--as if I were not sufficiently informed. Actually I am very much aware of such gossip. Moreover, I have also known the TFP representatives here in Rome very well for nearly two decades.

Before demonstrating any support for the TFP I investigated with extreme care and diligence the basis of rumors against it. I found no proofs to corroborate such whisper campaigns. At the same time, the TFP has always answered such accusations convincingly. Mention of such refutations in your letter is conspicuously absent.

Allow me to give you an example of such baseless attacks. A year ago I was arduously solicited by a Spanish lady to pronounce myself against the TFP in light of one of these "family cases" that you mention in your letter. The fact is that the TFP member, against whom she had opened a lawsuit, won the court case hands down. Not only was the judge's decision clear, but a certain ecclesiastical authority that had heedlessly supported the attack against the TFP subsequently lost his position.

In addition, the disgrunteld families--a phenomenon not uncommon in the past with many Catholic Orders, Congregations or Groups, and which continues still today--are a very small part of the families who have sons in the TFP.

Based on my scrutiny of the person of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira and his work, after his death I was pleased to celebrate a Solemn Requiem Mass in Santo Spirito in Sassia near the Vatican for the repose of his soul.

With no less pleasure I wrote the preface to Prof. Roberto de Mattei's biography of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira, Il crociato del secolo XX. Prof. de Mattei, besides docuмenting his work abundantly, had a personal relationship with Prof. Correa de Oliveira for more than twenty years, visiting him in Brazil many times. It is my hope that this work, already published in Italy and France, be also printed in the United States. Both the author and I have received compliments for it from ecclesiastical authorities.

This hearsay of which you speak does not surprise me. If you know the story of St. John Bosco well, you certainly are aware of the numerous unjust and baseless criticisms he and his work had to endure. As have many other benevolent figures and groups in the Church. The same goes for Plinio Correa de Oliveira and his work.

But what really leaves me bewildered and sad is that such false witness takes place in circles that should be united and concentrated on the defense of our great common cause of the Church, rather than wasting energies thus.

Thank you for the post.
Besides Cardinal Stickler, there are many other priests who praised the publications of TFP--
Archbishop Nienstedt, Cardinal Estevez, Bishop R de la Barra, etc.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #39 on:** May 29, 2014, 05:42:14 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Father Bolduc warned me about the TFP when I asked him about it. If my memory properly serves me, he also described it as a cult.

Well, my guess is that Father Bolduc heard and read the same stuff that's been out there.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #40 on:** May 29, 2014, 05:50:07 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Ladislaus, friend here. No need to throw ad hominems at me.

I apologize for that, pft. I get upset because you were spreading the usual calumnies about TFP without any real first-hand experience.

Quote

Also, you read some of their agendas, they're neo-cons, and it's actually sickening to me some of the stupidity of the stuff they put out. Here are some examples.

I know many TFP members quite well. They are NOT neo-cons. In fact, they are monarchists if anything. They have close ties with the deposed Brazilian monarchy. They engage in these public protests for a variety of reasons:

1) they're often met with hostility at the protests, and they feel that it builds character ... if you recall they are imbued with this "warrior" mentality

2) they like to engage in public events in order to spread awareness about the existence of the group

They are actually monarchists and medievalists ... and have no illusions about the Masonic origins of the United States and its form of government, but despite that feel a duty of patriotism.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #41 on:** May 29, 2014, 06:03:57 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/the-american-tfp-statement-decries-qcowardly-acts-of-terrorismq.html

Come on, :stare: I know enough about them to know what they're about. I'm not "being stupid."

No, you really don't know enough about them. I can assure you that every single member of TFP that I've ever met believes that 9/11 was an inside job. They're caught in a bit of a dilemma, and you'll find this with a lot of Traditional groups. They try to be "good citizens" and do their "civic duty" and want to encourage and instill a sense of "patriotism" (which is, taken in isolation, a virtue after all), and yet they're conflicted by the fact that our current government is corrupt. I know many Traditional priests who display the Masonic U.S. flag inside the Catholic sanctuary. I'll bet that Father Bolduc was one of those as well.

You had the same debate raging at the SSPX seminary in Winona. You had a large group of French monarchists who were constantly battling with the American-born seminarians. You had people with opinions that ranged from wanting to denounce the entire American government as illegitimate to those who wanted to practically canonize the "Founding Fathers".

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #42 on:** May 29, 2014, 10:14:07 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: parentsfortruth
http://www.tfp.org/current-campaigns/2001/the-american-tfp-statement-decries-qcowardly-acts-of-terrorismq.html

Come on, :stare: I know enough about them to know what they're about. I'm not "being stupid."

No, you really don't know enough about them. I can assure you that every single member of TFP that I've ever met believes that 9/11 was an inside job. They're caught in a bit of a dilemma, and you'll find this with a lot of Traditional groups. They try to be "good citizens" and do their "civic duty" and want to encourage and instill a sense of "patriotism" (which is, taken in isolation, a virtue after all), and yet they're conflicted by the fact that our current government is corrupt. I know many Traditional priests who display the Masonic U.S. flag inside the Catholic sanctuary. I'll bet that Father Bolduc was one of those as well.

You had the same debate raging at the SSPX seminary in Winona. You had a large group of French monarchists who were constantly battling with the American-born seminarians. You had people with opinions that ranged from wanting to denounce the entire American government as illegitimate to those who wanted to practically canonize the "Founding Fathers".

Yes, because Father Bolduc was a military veteran, and was actually a translator for Elvis in Germany. He believed the Islam thing, too, but then we have a prominent JBSer (and they also believe this stuff, too) that is one of the "debunkers" at our church as well.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #43 on:** May 29, 2014, 01:02:29 PM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Yes, because Father Bolduc was a military veteran, and was actually a translator for Elvis in Germany. He believed the Islam thing, too, but then we have a prominent JBSer (and they also believe this stuff, too) that is one of the "debunkers" at our church as well.

And my only point there was that this kindof thing doesn't disqualify someone from being a good Catholic. You had used this as a way of attacking TFP.