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Author Topic: Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad  (Read 2298 times)

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Offline InfiniteFaith

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Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
« on: August 18, 2013, 08:22:29 PM »
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  • I am stumbling on some evidence that the SSPX could be correct about the post Vatican II Church...

    Our Lady of Good Success

    “Thus I make it known to you that from the end of the 19th century and shortly after the middle of the 20th century… It will be difficult to receive the Sacrament of Baptism, and also that of Confirmation… The Catholic spirit will rapidly decay; the precious light of the Faith will gradually be extinguished…”

    “Various heresies will be propagated in this land, then a free Republic. As these heresies spread and dominate, the precious light of Faith will be extinguished in souls by the almost total corruption of customs [morals]… The small number of souls who, hidden, will preserve the treasure of the Faith and the virtues will suffer an unspeakably cruel and slow martyrdom…”

    “Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Antichrist.”

    Our Lady of Fatima

    “Satan rules even in the highest positions and determines the direction of things. He will succeed in worming his way even into the highest summits of the Church…”

    “But this will be a time of great trials for the Church. Cardinals will oppose cardinals. Bishops will oppose bishops. Satan will walk in their ranks. In Rome, there will be great changes. What is rotten will fall and what will fall will never rise again. Darkness will envelope the Church and the world will be thrown into a panic.”

    St. Hippolytus (3rd century)

    "And the churches too will wail with a mighty lamentation, because neither oblation nor incense is attended to, nor a service acceptable to God; but the sanctuaries of the churches will become like a garden-watcher's hut, and the Holy Body and Blood of Christ will not be shown in those days. The public service of God shall be extinguished.”

    St. John Bosco (19th century)

    “There will be an Ecuмenical Council in the next century, after which there will be chaos in the Church.” [1862 Prediction]

    Venerable Anna Katarina Emmerick (19th century)

    “I saw also the relationship between the two popes… I saw how baleful (evil; harmful) would be the consequences of this false church. I saw it increase in size;2 heretics of every kind came into the city (of Rome)3 … Once more I saw the Church of Peter was undermined by a plan evolved by the secret sect (Masonry), while storms were damaging it.”

    “The Church is in great danger… I see that in this place (Rome) the (Catholic) Church is being so cleverly undermined, that there will hardly remain a hundred or so priests who have not been deceived. They all work for destruction, even the clergy. The great devastation is now at hand.”

    Source: http://www.marienfried.com/catholic%20teachings/prophecy%20of%20apostasy.html


    Also...

    After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will become unrecognisable. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, secret deeds and murder will rule in society.
    -- St. Nilus, 430 AD


    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 08:27:53 PM »
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  • I need some more evidence. Maybe some heresies in post Vatican II doctrine. Those sorts of things.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #2 on: August 18, 2013, 08:33:05 PM »
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  • http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2003_January/errors_of_vatican_II.htm

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 02:21:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2003_January/errors_of_vatican_II.htm


    This is a lot of material so I am going to start with just one thing at a time. The first thing I will start with is Ambiguity in the Vatican II council...


    Vatican II's Dei Verbum (on Divine Revelation) is called a "dogmatic constitution" because it concerns the inerrant truth of dogma. In §9, however, it expounds in an obviously insufficient and unclear way [or else, why the confusion presented in § 11 ?-Ed.] how the truths of the Faith rest on two pillars of revelation-Sacred Scripture and Tradition-and on the absolute inerrancy of Sacred Scripture and the total historical authenticity of the Gospels.6 In §11, Dei Verbum lends itself even to opposite interpretations, one of which would reduce inerrancy only to "truth...confided to the Sacred Scriptures....":

    ...Since, therefore, all that the inspired authors, or sacred writers, affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error, teach that truth which God, for the sake of salvation, wished to see confided to the sacred Scriptures....(Dei Verbum, § lib, Nov. 18, 1965)

    This is substantively equivalent to heresy because the absolute inerrancy of Sacred Scripture and the truth expounded there is the truth of the Faith constantly deduced and taught by the Church alone.

    ---------------------------------

    I'm not sure I see the issue with what was being taught in the Dei Verbum. Is the issue only with the fact that "Tradition" was not mentioned, and it seemingly progressed the idea of Sola Scriptura? The comment at the end of this bit mentions Church alone...how exactly is this quote from the Dei Verbum contradicting Church alone?

    Offline Pelly

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 06:32:23 AM »
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  • One just have to look at the Clown "Masses" or even the Clown Motu "Masses" practised in the NO.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 08:45:05 AM »
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  • IF, the paragraph from Dei Verbum you quoted seems (to me) to (at least taken alone, as you have provided) delegate the truths of Sacred Scripture to truths that are confided to Sacred Scripture; i.e., the truths within Sacred Scripture can ONLY be found within sacred scripture (which is not true-- certainly not as a blanket statement).  

    But in any event, I have long been of the opinion that if one is to look at VII for pundits and soundbites that are altogether irreconcilable with the faith of the Catholic Church as handed down from Christ, His Apostles and His Church, one should look at Dignitatis Humanae no. 4 which taught:

    Quote from: Dignitatis Humanae no. 4
    The freedom or immunity from coercion in matters religious which is the endowment of persons as individuals is also to be recognized as their right when they act in community. Religious communities are a requirement of the social nature both of man and of religion itself.

    Provided the just demands of public order are observed, religious communities rightfully claim freedom in order that they may govern themselves according to their own norms, honor the Supreme Being in public worship, assist their members in the practice of the religious life, strengthen them by instruction, and promote institutions in which they may join together for the purpose of ordering their own lives in accordance with their religious principles.

    Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered, either by legal measures or by administrative action on the part of government, in the selection, training, appointment, and transferral of their own ministers, in communicating with religious authorities and communities abroad, in erecting buildings for religious purposes, and in the acquisition and use of suitable funds or properties.

    Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or by the written word. However, in spreading religious faith and in introducing religious practices everyone ought at all times to refrain from any manner of action which might seem to carry a hint of coercion or of a kind of persuasion that would be dishonorable or unworthy, especially when dealing with poor or uneducated people. Such a manner of action would have to be considered an abuse of one's right and a violation of the right of others.

    In addition, it comes within the meaning of religious freedom that religious communities should not be prohibited from freely undertaking to show the special value of their doctrine in what concerns the organization of society and the inspiration of the whole of human activity. Finally, the social nature of man and the very nature of religion afford the foundation of the right of men freely to hold meetings and to establish educational, cultural, charitable and social organizations, under the impulse of their own religious sense.


    I've highlighted and underlined a few of the more glaring problems.  This docuмent affords no exclusive right to the One, True Faith (the Catholic faith) but rather teaches that 'religious communities' are all afforded the same rights that were once only considered rights granted to God's Church.  Any other Church is ultimately Satan's Church, as the Psalmist teaches 'the idols of the gentiles are devils.'  Plainly put, this entire docuмent supposes to assign error rights, which is entirely contradictory (not just contrary, but contradictory; i.e., mutually exclusive with) to what The Church had taught up to this point, especially if we consider the Syllabus of Errors by Pius IX which taught, among other things:

    Quote from: The Syllabus of Errors, Pius IX


    #77 [It is an error to believe that...] In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.

    ...

    #79 Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 09:59:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    I need some more evidence. Maybe some heresies in post Vatican II doctrine. Those sorts of things.


    Ask yourself why the church prior to Vatican II was an entirely different organism than the post-Vatican II church.

    The Pope is not the head of the Catholic Church, Leo XIII said that Christ is the head of the Catholic Church.  All this visible and invisible stuff is just preparing the faithful to accept the revolution which was brought about by John XXIII and largely carried out by Paul VI.  

    The preparation work was done by Pius XII and I hope some scholars have the courage to truly address this issue.

    Oh, instead of digging through a bunch of books (which you will have no choice but to read up on the topic) visit an SSPX or FSSP chapel and visit a novus ordo church.  

    Keep reading.  

    Either Catholicism is what Christ and His Church meant it to be or it's whatever the current (transitory) opinion of the current occupant of the Papacy.  

    Oh yes, one more thing - the novus ordo was designed by committee to replace the Catholic Mass.  The committee wanted to create something that would link all believers with each other and the modern world.  Our Catholic Mass is the public worship which Our Lord and Savior is due!  That's a huge HUGE difference!

    The committee that designed the nouvelle theologie service included six protestants (these are people who DO NOT BELIEVE in transubstantiation) and even the "catholics" in the group were theologians of ill-repute and ones that were under suspicion of heresy pre-Vatican II.

    Only someone who is willfully blind would deny that Vatican II was a revolution.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #7 on: August 19, 2013, 01:27:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    IF, the paragraph from Dei Verbum you quoted seems (to me) to (at least taken alone, as you have provided) delegate the truths of Sacred Scripture to truths that are confided to Sacred Scripture; i.e., the truths within Sacred Scripture can ONLY be found within sacred scripture (which is not true-- certainly not as a blanket statement).  

    But in any event, I have long been of the opinion that if one is to look at VII for pundits and soundbites that are altogether irreconcilable with the faith of the Catholic Church as handed down from Christ, His Apostles and His Church, one should look at Dignitatis Humanae no. 4 which taught:

    Quote from: Dignitatis Humanae no. 4
    The freedom or immunity from coercion in matters religious which is the endowment of persons as individuals is also to be recognized as their right when they act in community. Religious communities are a requirement of the social nature both of man and of religion itself.

    Provided the just demands of public order are observed, religious communities rightfully claim freedom in order that they may govern themselves according to their own norms, honor the Supreme Being in public worship, assist their members in the practice of the religious life, strengthen them by instruction, and promote institutions in which they may join together for the purpose of ordering their own lives in accordance with their religious principles.

    Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered, either by legal measures or by administrative action on the part of government, in the selection, training, appointment, and transferral of their own ministers, in communicating with religious authorities and communities abroad, in erecting buildings for religious purposes, and in the acquisition and use of suitable funds or properties.

    Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or by the written word. However, in spreading religious faith and in introducing religious practices everyone ought at all times to refrain from any manner of action which might seem to carry a hint of coercion or of a kind of persuasion that would be dishonorable or unworthy, especially when dealing with poor or uneducated people. Such a manner of action would have to be considered an abuse of one's right and a violation of the right of others.

    In addition, it comes within the meaning of religious freedom that religious communities should not be prohibited from freely undertaking to show the special value of their doctrine in what concerns the organization of society and the inspiration of the whole of human activity. Finally, the social nature of man and the very nature of religion afford the foundation of the right of men freely to hold meetings and to establish educational, cultural, charitable and social organizations, under the impulse of their own religious sense.


    I've highlighted and underlined a few of the more glaring problems.  This docuмent affords no exclusive right to the One, True Faith (the Catholic faith) but rather teaches that 'religious communities' are all afforded the same rights that were once only considered rights granted to God's Church.  Any other Church is ultimately Satan's Church, as the Psalmist teaches 'the idols of the gentiles are devils.'  Plainly put, this entire docuмent supposes to assign error rights, which is entirely contradictory (not just contrary, but contradictory; i.e., mutually exclusive with) to what The Church had taught up to this point, especially if we consider the Syllabus of Errors by Pius IX which taught, among other things:

    Quote from: The Syllabus of Errors, Pius IX


    #77 [It is an error to believe that...] In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.

    ...

    #79 Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.


    I think the issue lies with the fact that they did not include tradition. I don't see the statement as false, but it is lacking certain bits of information. This statement should have been used as an example of an Omission rather than Ambiguity. I have seen examples of Omission in councils from 500 years ago.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 01:31:51 PM »
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  • No, it is not an omission, but an addition.  It is a new teaching.  Never before has the Catholic Church believed that any religious community other than itself has a positive right to exist.  They may be tolerated as an evil when not doing so would bring about a great evil, but never has the Church taught they have an inherent right to exist.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #9 on: August 19, 2013, 01:50:12 PM »
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  • Correction to the above post: I wrote "... [The Church teaches false religions] may be tolerated when not doing so would bring about a great evil..."

    "Great" should read "greater."
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #10 on: August 19, 2013, 02:33:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    No, it is not an omission, but an addition.  It is a new teaching.  Never before has the Catholic Church believed that any religious community other than itself has a positive right to exist.  They may be tolerated as an evil when not doing so would bring about a great evil, but never has the Church taught they have an inherent right to exist.


    Wait. Your jumping into another subject. I was hoping we could focus on the example of Ambiguity in the article that Telephorus provided.

    Your saying its an addition. I'm not so sure. To me it seems that the statement is not false.


    Offline Matto

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #11 on: August 19, 2013, 03:07:49 PM »
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  • You should become a trad because the Novus Ordo is what happened when the Jєωs took over the Church and remodeled it until it didn't offend them. The traditional Catholics are the remnant that is resisting and still worship God instead of the Novus Ordo which worships the Jєωs.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #12 on: August 19, 2013, 03:18:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    You should become a trad because the Novus Ordo is what happened when the Jєωs took over the Church and remodeled it until it didn't offend them. The traditional Catholics are the remnant that is resisting and still worship God instead of the Novus Ordo which worships the Jєωs.


    Do you have proof of this?

    Offline Matto

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #13 on: August 19, 2013, 03:24:36 PM »
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  • Isn't it obviuous? The Church was infiltrated by Jєωs and Freemasons. Why do you think that the people we used to call Christ-killers and confined to ghettos are now called our "elder brothers" and we go into their ѕуηαgσgυєs and praise them. I don't have any docuмentation on me . . . this is what my common sense tells me and also what I learned from reading about the Jєωs and Freemasons. Others here know more about the cօռspιʀαcιҽs against the Church . . . I just know the basics.

    Here's one link:
    Link
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline TCat

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    Alright...I need some reasons to become a Trad
    « Reply #14 on: August 19, 2013, 03:32:28 PM »
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  • @Infinite faith
    I just resolved to stop going to novus ordo mass on sunday. The question of whether or not to end my participation in the Vatican 2 church weighed heavily on me, and I accounted a matter of the highest importance concerning the welfare of my soul.
    I essentially believe that it is very easy to go to Hell, and I was motivated for sometime to make myself appear as acceptable in the eyes of God as it was possible for me to be.
    I found the novus ordo mass, and the priests, to be something which damaged my faith, and which cultivated, ever so subtly, the spirit of apathy towards fighting for my own salvation. It was not long after going to novus ordo mass for a while that I stopped saying the rosary, took on habits of regular sin, and was essentially no different to the average person my age (28) who these days don't care about religion. I was pretending to myself that I would be saved no matter what, ignoring the reality of my own willingness to sin, and ignoring how I would seem to Jesus who demands of us a certain purity. Essentially I was making God in my own image, just as the rest of the novus ordo goers had done, and it was obvious what the fruits were.

    In the novus ordo mass there was never any Gregorian chant, the priests gave terrible sermons and never confronted the main issues, the only thing they speak on is abortion, but never contraception ( hypocrisy), never condemning gαy marriage, never condemning the hardcore anti-Church media in this country.
    The "mass" had alter girls, a thing explicitly condemned by at least one pope, the cross they carried up the aisle was a thin flimsy unimpressive yoak, the "Eucharistic ministers" ( another new thing of Vatican 2) were all middle aged women, some of them in skirts as if to say "look at me", thus showing the fruits of Vatican 2, which were the people not giving a damn about anything holy or sacred.
    The priests of Vatican 2 are nothing more than cowards. Ive went to them for advice countless times and rarely got it. Their line was "spend some time alone with the Lord" which I do anyway. One novus ordo priest who is old ( so I think he is validly ordained) told me "pray only if you feel like it"

    Pray only if I feel like it? Is that the way to heaven? Will this half assed motivation to work off my sins make me a saint?

    And just look at the Vatican 2 saints. Two are popes who wrecked the church and caused billions to abandon the faith. Mother Theresa prayed to Ghandi and Buddha, there are photos of her in a Buddhist temple. There are books about her describing how she was not even Catholic, yet the Vatican made her a saint.

    But here is a link to photographs of the revolution in the church, because I know one does not always mentally digest written argument when one is new to the subject.

    http://traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/ChurchRevIndex.htm
    Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux! Ne Draco Sit Mihi Dux!