Author Topic: Advice please  (Read 3016 times)

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Offline Canuk the Lionheart

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Advice please
« on: June 19, 2011, 12:03:24 AM »
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  • I'm in a bit of a delicate situation with my family here. In my local there is a theologically conservative Jesuit (they exist) affiliated with the FSSP who says the Tridentine Mass every Sunday. My parents have taken me to it and attended with me, however they are now interested in attending the "normal" Mass again (Novus Ordo), and when I try to tell them why I will not attend it, the entire conversation is almost brushed off. I love my parents deeply, and want to be reasonable and accommodating in every way, but I cannot compromise on this. I'm sure others here may have had a similar experience with family and friends, so how to go about this?

    Offline roscoe

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    Advice please
    « Reply #1 on: June 19, 2011, 01:51:28 AM »
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  • Throughout the realm and history of Christiandom, there have been many illustrious bloodlines. Unfortunately these same families have produced some  black sheep.  They have names like Theophylact, Gaetani, Medici, Pallavicini etc. It seems your family is no exception.  :smoke-pot:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    Advice please
    « Reply #2 on: June 19, 2011, 01:54:15 AM »
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  • Here's my advice (coming from a former youth whose indiscreet zeal caused more harm than good, for which I will have to make reparation somehow).

    If you are a minor, you ought to remember that your father (together with your mother) holds absolute primacy in your home and has sovereign rights upon your person, until you reach an age whereat you become an self-sufficient adult and are therefore no longer bound to your father's authority. You owe him obedience and filial devotion at all times, and you must never think, say or do anything that might fall short of such a grave obligation. Your manners and behavior should demonstrate this to your parents, that they may see that you have embraced the profession and practice of the faith for love of God and holy zeal, and not for the sake of self-serving false piety that is really in the case of some young traditionals a "hallowed rebellion."

    Many youths who become traditional have great regard for the theological virtues, especially faith and the virtue of religion wherewith it is concomitant, but they often seem to neglect the acquired moral virtues, especially those that ought to be exercised in the household (such as filial obedience, temperance in thought and act, modesty of manners, &c.) and would edify their parents and friends more than any learned apologetical discourse.

    If your attempts to have a reasonable and amicable exchange with your parents (wherein you calmly laid out the reasons why you have chosen the Roman Mass over the N.O. service) have failed, then you ought to speak with actions: focus on the cultivation of the interior life, and practice mortification, self-detachment, prayerful manners, &c. and your parents will see that you are becoming a better person because of your traditional faith. This, coupled with a persevering refusal to regress to the N.O. services, may perhaps make them think twice about the matter.

    If you are old enough, and if you have won the trust and consent of your parents, you can go on your own to the Latin Mass somehow, either by driving or hitching a ride with others whom you know and trust and attend a traditional Chapel.

    The first and best recourse is, as always, prayer. Pray a lot for your parents, and encourage the practice of the Family Rosary and other devotions as much as you can, and accompany this with a truly edifying example of Christian virtue and filial piety.

    This is what has occurred to my mind thus far. If anything else occurs to me, I will reply further.

    Please be assured of my prayers regarding this matter.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline LordPhan

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    Advice please
    « Reply #3 on: June 19, 2011, 02:21:21 AM »
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  • There is error is Hobble's Post, Filial obligations are null when you are told to do something that is wrong. If your father tells you to kill your neighbour his authority is void. Justly, if your Father tells you to go to a heretical novus ordo mass where you may commit sacriledge then once again in this regard his authority is null.


    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #4 on: June 19, 2011, 02:36:36 AM »
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  • I should probably point out that Hobble did make a great post, and perhaps he and I disagree on whether or not the Novus Ordo fullfills the Sunday obligation or is inherently dangerous to the faith.

    Under normal circumstances what he says is true, the whole post, however these do not apply under abnormal circumstances. The ordinary vs the extraordinary.

    There are no catch-22's in the catholic faith, there is no damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. You can never sin by refusing to do something wrong.

    Aside from this point, Hobble gave some great advice on how to convince your parents to actually become Catholic.

    Perhaps you could get ahold of some apologetics on the Novus Ordo and the Liturgical Reforms? I have a good book called "Problems the Liturgical Reforms" That would be good. There is some great articles on the SSPX.org website aswell I'll post a few


    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #5 on: June 19, 2011, 02:43:42 AM »
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  • Here are a few.

    This one here explains why you should NOT go to the Novus Ordo

    http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novus_ordo_missae.htm

    This is the Ottiavani Intervention

    http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/brief_critical_study_of_the_new_order_of_mass-ottaviani-intervention.pdf

    This is deep, prepare for a long read

    http://www.sspx.org/motu_proprio/theology_of_the_mass.pdf

    This one actually mentions the book I mentioned, :)

    http://www.sspx.org/news/is_new_mass_legit/is_the_new_mass_legit.htm

    Offline Baskerville

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    « Reply #6 on: June 19, 2011, 04:11:55 AM »
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  • I would suggest maybe having a compromise if you think the NO is a Mass then go to it every other Sunday and go to the Latin Mass the other Sundays. See if your parents would be up for that.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #7 on: June 19, 2011, 06:04:03 AM »
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  • I would agree that Hobbledehoy gives some pretty sound advice.  Since I cannot know your situation with greater clarity, I would simply make a few observations.

    First, assuming the ordination of this conservative Jesuit is valid, his saying of the traditional Mass is valid.  Try to go there when you are able.  Oftentimes, there is an SSPX parish or some other chapel independent of the diocese in the same area.  If there is, you (and your parents) will be, in the long run, better off finding that chapel.

    Second, if you are forced to go to the Novus Ordo, treat it as it is...a Protestant service.  Do not participate other than standing and sitting.  You can even sort of kneel in order to be polite to a person who might be kneeling behind you.  Depending upon the parish, the kneeling issue might not even be an issue as I know that there are some Novus Ordo parishes that have pretty much abolished kneeling altogether.  Do not receive communion at that parish nor go to confession there.  I think, if you stand firm on this, most parents would (eventually) become concerned and you might be able to convince them to return to the "abnormal" Mass.


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #8 on: June 19, 2011, 07:53:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    I should probably point out that Hobble did make a great post, and perhaps he and I disagree on whether or not the Novus Ordo fullfills the Sunday obligation or is inherently dangerous to the faith.


    What I wrote was meant as a general observation since I do not know the particulars of the original poster's situation, nor do I know his position regarding the controversial topics pertinent to the discussion.

    You are correct: a father's domestic primacy is nullified when he perverts it in order to command the subjects of his authority to transgress the Commandments and the Precepts of Holy Mother Church. However, I would feel anxious in counseling a child to go against parental authority and disturb the tranquility of domestic order when I do not know the particulars of the situation and when I lack the competence and ability to contribute any substantial help for the child in question [just to be clear, I am not saying that the original poster is a child: I speak in generalities and hypothetically]. I cannot just counsel a minor to rebel against his parents and just abandon him to the mercy of the same.

    I do agree with you that the N.O. service does not fulfill the Sunday obligation and is inherently erroneous against faith and morals. I thought I made that clear when I juxtaposed the terms "Roman Mass" with "N.O. service." I did not wish to give the impression that I am pushing my position upon a minor (if indeed the original poster is a minor), no matter how correct it may be. Natural law does not give me the authority or competence to do that, since it is to his parents and spiritual director that have been given the capacity to teach and guide a minor.

    Canuk, that brings me to another point: seek out the advice of a traditional Priest whom you trust and to whom you would go for spiritual direction.

    LordPhan, you and the other posters supply well what I failed to mention in my first reply. Thanks!
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Exilenomore

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    Advice please
    « Reply #9 on: June 19, 2011, 08:00:25 AM »
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  • I do not think that Hobble meant to say that he should go to novus ordo services.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Advice please
    « Reply #10 on: June 19, 2011, 09:36:57 AM »
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  • My advice is taken from Matthew 19; 29 and it reads:

    And everyone who has left house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's, sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    « Reply #11 on: June 19, 2011, 12:06:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Canuk the Lionheart
    and when I try to tell them why I will not attend it, the entire conversation is almost brushed off.


    I am wondering if part of the problem is that parents often don't take their children's views seriously.  Ask them if they will talk to the priest and get him to explain to them why it is important for you to go to the TLM.  They might be more receptive to him.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #12 on: June 19, 2011, 01:04:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    Throughout the realm and history of Christiandom, there have been many illustrious bloodlines. Unfortunately these same families have produced some  black sheep.  They have names like Theophylact, Gaetani, Medici, Pallavicini etc. It seems your family is no exception.


    So, are you saying he is the black sheep of his family?  :laugh2:
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #13 on: June 19, 2011, 01:08:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exilenomore
    I do not think that Hobble meant to say that he should go to novus ordo services.


    FWIW, I believe it is crystal clear he was NOT saying such a thing.  I have been impressed and edified by the advice y'all have given in this thread and the manner in which it has been given.  Thank you.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline Canuk the Lionheart

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    « Reply #14 on: June 19, 2011, 04:21:50 PM »
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  • After Low Mass, there was some talk of going to Novus Ordo again. I said respectfully, that I couldn't do so in good conscience not so much because of the language (my parent's issue) but because of the Missal itself, and the theology associated with it. There was no discussion on theology, no disagreement, only that they are fine with my opinion. I may have been making a mountain out of an anthill, and going about it in the wrong way initially (trying to discuss specific theology), but they are fine with my opinion (as they usually are when I have a strong stance on some belief). I feel great!

     

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