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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Canuk the Lionheart on June 19, 2011, 12:03:24 AM
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I'm in a bit of a delicate situation with my family here. In my local there is a theologically conservative Jesuit (they exist) affiliated with the FSSP who says the Tridentine Mass every Sunday. My parents have taken me to it and attended with me, however they are now interested in attending the "normal" Mass again (Novus Ordo), and when I try to tell them why I will not attend it, the entire conversation is almost brushed off. I love my parents deeply, and want to be reasonable and accommodating in every way, but I cannot compromise on this. I'm sure others here may have had a similar experience with family and friends, so how to go about this?
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Throughout the realm and history of Christiandom, there have been many illustrious bloodlines. Unfortunately these same families have produced some black sheep. They have names like Theophylact, Gaetani, Medici, Pallavicini etc. It seems your family is no exception. :smoke-pot:
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Here's my advice (coming from a former youth whose indiscreet zeal caused more harm than good, for which I will have to make reparation somehow).
If you are a minor, you ought to remember that your father (together with your mother) holds absolute primacy in your home and has sovereign rights upon your person, until you reach an age whereat you become an self-sufficient adult and are therefore no longer bound to your father's authority. You owe him obedience and filial devotion at all times, and you must never think, say or do anything that might fall short of such a grave obligation. Your manners and behavior should demonstrate this to your parents, that they may see that you have embraced the profession and practice of the faith for love of God and holy zeal, and not for the sake of self-serving false piety that is really in the case of some young traditionals a "hallowed rebellion."
Many youths who become traditional have great regard for the theological virtues, especially faith and the virtue of religion wherewith it is concomitant, but they often seem to neglect the acquired moral virtues, especially those that ought to be exercised in the household (such as filial obedience, temperance in thought and act, modesty of manners, &c.) and would edify their parents and friends more than any learned apologetical discourse.
If your attempts to have a reasonable and amicable exchange with your parents (wherein you calmly laid out the reasons why you have chosen the Roman Mass over the N.O. service) have failed, then you ought to speak with actions: focus on the cultivation of the interior life, and practice mortification, self-detachment, prayerful manners, &c. and your parents will see that you are becoming a better person because of your traditional faith. This, coupled with a persevering refusal to regress to the N.O. services, may perhaps make them think twice about the matter.
If you are old enough, and if you have won the trust and consent of your parents, you can go on your own to the Latin Mass somehow, either by driving or hitching a ride with others whom you know and trust and attend a traditional Chapel.
The first and best recourse is, as always, prayer. Pray a lot for your parents, and encourage the practice of the Family Rosary and other devotions as much as you can, and accompany this with a truly edifying example of Christian virtue and filial piety.
This is what has occurred to my mind thus far. If anything else occurs to me, I will reply further.
Please be assured of my prayers regarding this matter.
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There is error is Hobble's Post, Filial obligations are null when you are told to do something that is wrong. If your father tells you to kill your neighbour his authority is void. Justly, if your Father tells you to go to a heretical novus ordo mass where you may commit sacriledge then once again in this regard his authority is null.
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I should probably point out that Hobble did make a great post, and perhaps he and I disagree on whether or not the Novus Ordo fullfills the Sunday obligation or is inherently dangerous to the faith.
Under normal circuмstances what he says is true, the whole post, however these do not apply under abnormal circuмstances. The ordinary vs the extraordinary.
There are no catch-22's in the catholic faith, there is no damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. You can never sin by refusing to do something wrong.
Aside from this point, Hobble gave some great advice on how to convince your parents to actually become Catholic.
Perhaps you could get ahold of some apologetics on the Novus Ordo and the Liturgical Reforms? I have a good book called "Problems the Liturgical Reforms" That would be good. There is some great articles on the SSPX.org website aswell I'll post a few
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Here are a few.
This one here explains why you should NOT go to the Novus Ordo
http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novus_ordo_missae.htm
This is the Ottiavani Intervention
http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/brief_critical_study_of_the_new_order_of_mass-ottaviani-intervention.pdf
This is deep, prepare for a long read
http://www.sspx.org/motu_proprio/theology_of_the_mass.pdf
This one actually mentions the book I mentioned, :)
http://www.sspx.org/news/is_new_mass_legit/is_the_new_mass_legit.htm
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I would suggest maybe having a compromise if you think the NO is a Mass then go to it every other Sunday and go to the Latin Mass the other Sundays. See if your parents would be up for that.
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I would agree that Hobbledehoy gives some pretty sound advice. Since I cannot know your situation with greater clarity, I would simply make a few observations.
First, assuming the ordination of this conservative Jesuit is valid, his saying of the traditional Mass is valid. Try to go there when you are able. Oftentimes, there is an SSPX parish or some other chapel independent of the diocese in the same area. If there is, you (and your parents) will be, in the long run, better off finding that chapel.
Second, if you are forced to go to the Novus Ordo, treat it as it is...a Protestant service. Do not participate other than standing and sitting. You can even sort of kneel in order to be polite to a person who might be kneeling behind you. Depending upon the parish, the kneeling issue might not even be an issue as I know that there are some Novus Ordo parishes that have pretty much abolished kneeling altogether. Do not receive communion at that parish nor go to confession there. I think, if you stand firm on this, most parents would (eventually) become concerned and you might be able to convince them to return to the "abnormal" Mass.
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I should probably point out that Hobble did make a great post, and perhaps he and I disagree on whether or not the Novus Ordo fullfills the Sunday obligation or is inherently dangerous to the faith.
What I wrote was meant as a general observation since I do not know the particulars of the original poster's situation, nor do I know his position regarding the controversial topics pertinent to the discussion.
You are correct: a father's domestic primacy is nullified when he perverts it in order to command the subjects of his authority to transgress the Commandments and the Precepts of Holy Mother Church. However, I would feel anxious in counseling a child to go against parental authority and disturb the tranquility of domestic order when I do not know the particulars of the situation and when I lack the competence and ability to contribute any substantial help for the child in question [just to be clear, I am not saying that the original poster is a child: I speak in generalities and hypothetically]. I cannot just counsel a minor to rebel against his parents and just abandon him to the mercy of the same.
I do agree with you that the N.O. service does not fulfill the Sunday obligation and is inherently erroneous against faith and morals. I thought I made that clear when I juxtaposed the terms "Roman Mass" with "N.O. service." I did not wish to give the impression that I am pushing my position upon a minor (if indeed the original poster is a minor), no matter how correct it may be. Natural law does not give me the authority or competence to do that, since it is to his parents and spiritual director that have been given the capacity to teach and guide a minor.
Canuk, that brings me to another point: seek out the advice of a traditional Priest whom you trust and to whom you would go for spiritual direction.
LordPhan, you and the other posters supply well what I failed to mention in my first reply. Thanks!
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I do not think that Hobble meant to say that he should go to novus ordo services.
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My advice is taken from Matthew 19; 29 and it reads:
And everyone who has left house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's, sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.
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and when I try to tell them why I will not attend it, the entire conversation is almost brushed off.
I am wondering if part of the problem is that parents often don't take their children's views seriously. Ask them if they will talk to the priest and get him to explain to them why it is important for you to go to the TLM. They might be more receptive to him.
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Throughout the realm and history of Christiandom, there have been many illustrious bloodlines. Unfortunately these same families have produced some black sheep. They have names like Theophylact, Gaetani, Medici, Pallavicini etc. It seems your family is no exception.
So, are you saying he is the black sheep of his family? :laugh2:
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I do not think that Hobble meant to say that he should go to novus ordo services.
FWIW, I believe it is crystal clear he was NOT saying such a thing. I have been impressed and edified by the advice y'all have given in this thread and the manner in which it has been given. Thank you.
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After Low Mass, there was some talk of going to Novus Ordo again. I said respectfully, that I couldn't do so in good conscience not so much because of the language (my parent's issue) but because of the Missal itself, and the theology associated with it. There was no discussion on theology, no disagreement, only that they are fine with my opinion. I may have been making a mountain out of an anthill, and going about it in the wrong way initially (trying to discuss specific theology), but they are fine with my opinion (as they usually are when I have a strong stance on some belief). I feel great!
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There was no discussion on theology, no disagreement, only that they are fine with my opinion.
Good.
I may have been making a mountain out of an anthill, and going about it in the wrong way initially (trying to discuss specific theology), but they are fine with my opinion (as they usually are when I have a strong stance on some belief). I feel great!
DROP that rock -- you were right, not making a mountain...etc. IMO, from the little I know, you have handled this most admirably.
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I'll shed some insight here. First of all, regarding the father's commands becoming null when wrong (happy Father's Day, by the way). Take it from a guy like me who had to dis-obey alot of the commands from his Protestant father. It is true that the father is the head of the household, and as my parish priest said today it is up to them to handle to finances, decide where the family goes to Church, etc. However, that being said, when your father tells you to attend a service created by Freemasons, his command becomes null. It's not a sin to dis-obey your parents if they tell you something you KNOW is wrong. So when my Protestant dad tried to get me to go to church with him, I had two options. Either obey him and go, or say "Heck no, I'm Catholic and will not go to a Protestant service!". I think you can guess which option I chose.
As far as the Novus Ordo fulfilling one's Sunday Obligation, that depends. Those who don't know the NO is wrong and don't know the history of Vatican II (like how it was infiltrated by Freemasons) are still meeting their Sunday Obligation by attending as long as they have every intention of pleasing God. On the other hand, those who know the NO is wrong but continue to go without care are not meeting their Sunday Obligation because they clearly don't care about pleasing God, they only care about doing what is most conveniant or satisfying for them. So my advice is not to go to the NO no matter how much your parents try to convince you of going. I hope this helps you.
Have a Blessed Sunday and God Bless.
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Throughout the realm and history of Christiandom, there have been many illustrious bloodlines. Unfortunately these same families have produced some black sheep. They have names like Theophylact, Gaetani, Medici, Pallavicini etc. It seems your family is no exception.
So, are you saying he is the black sheep of his family? :laugh2:
Oh, come on!
There is absolutely no reason for ANYONE to have disliked this utterly innocuous post. Whoever you are , you are simply making yourself look foolish. And yes, I DID like it to counterbalance you dislike, and will do so in the future as well anytime it is this obviously personal.
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Throughout the realm and history of Christiandom, there have been many illustrious bloodlines. Unfortunately these same families have produced some black sheep. They have names like Theophylact, Gaetani, Medici, Pallavicini etc. It seems your family is no exception.
So, are you saying he is the black sheep of his family? :laugh2:
Oh, come on!
There is absolutely no reason for ANYONE to have disliked this utterly innocuous post. Whoever you are , you are simply making yourself look foolish. And yes, I DID like it to counterbalance you dislike, and will do so in the future as well anytime it is this obviously personal.
I think GV made that remark simply because he and roscoe don't get along.
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Even if Novus Ordo is not Catholic. There is no sin to attend it. So you must obey your parents if they make you.
You could even attend a Protestant service (or even play the organ for one) and it would not be a sin.
Ask any priest. It is only a sin to actively participate.
So if in the future your parents make you go to the New Mass - you must obey.
and if that is the case, take heart - "your sorrow shall be turned into joy".
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I think GV made that remark simply because he and roscoe don't get along.
He was talking about the actions of my ever-active anti-fan club, not roscoe.
I was just playing with my old, weed-smoking friend. Neither of us, as far as I know, had given the other the thumbs down. That is the domain of the Emoting Maniacs whose insatiable appetites know no bounds of time, reason, or decency. If g_v posted it, it MUST be voted DOWN...LOL! No biggie. I am a big boy and have used their own hatred against them. Tis pathetic, really. Please, go about you biz...ignoring their childishness...
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Even if Novus Ordo is not Catholic. There is no sin to attend it. So you must obey your parents if they make you.
You could even attend a Protestant service (or even play the organ for one) and it would not be a sin.
Ask any priest. It is only a sin to actively participate.
So if in the future your parents make you go to the New Mass - you must obey.
and if that is the case, take heart - "your sorrow shall be turned into joy".
No, that it not correct. The SSPX says it is a sin to attend a Protestant service if you are Catholic. Also, your parents' command(s) become null if they advise you to attend the NO.
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Even if Novus Ordo is not Catholic. There is no sin to attend it. So you must obey your parents if they make you.
You could even attend a Protestant service (or even play the organ for one) and it would not be a sin.
Ask any priest. It is only a sin to actively participate.
So if in the future your parents make you go to the New Mass - you must obey.
and if that is the case, take heart - "your sorrow shall be turned into joy".
No, that it not correct. The SSPX says it is a sin to attend a Protestant service if you are Catholic. Also, your parents' command(s) become null if they advise you to attend the NO.
e Church forbids Her children from participating in anything which represent a danger to one's faith. She forbids taking part in heretical assemblies and non-Catholic services. And you are correct, a command which is given, even by a lawful authority, can and must be refused if it represents a similar danger or contradicts the higher authority of the Church.
JMJ
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Even if Novus Ordo is not Catholic. There is no sin to attend it. So you must obey your parents if they make you.
You could even attend a Protestant service (or even play the organ for one) and it would not be a sin.
Ask any priest. It is only a sin to actively participate.
So if in the future your parents make you go to the New Mass - you must obey.
and if that is the case, take heart - "your sorrow shall be turned into joy".
No, that it not correct. The SSPX says it is a sin to attend a Protestant service if you are Catholic. Also, your parents' command(s) become null if they advise you to attend the NO.
Are you sure? Ask your (SSPX) priest is it is sinful to passively attend a Protestant service?
I have asked 2 priests if it is a sin to be employed as a musician for a Protestant church (either for pay or without pay) and both have said no. So I don't see how it can be sinful to attend the NO esp. if your parents command you to. You don't have to receive Communion.
@J.Paul - emphasis on "taking part".
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I'm surprised that you cannot seem to comprehend why it is sinful to attend a Protestant service. They do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus! They are a bunch of heretics and their service is an insult to God. The SSPX web-site says one should not attend a Protestant service. As far as attending the Novus Ordo? I'll let Archbishop LeFebvre answer that:
"The Novus Ordo Missae, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules, is empregnated with the spirit of Protestantism...it bears within it a poison harmful to the Faith".
Regarding obeying your parents if they want you to attend the NO, the Bible says that if an angel of light were to preach something against the truth you are allowed to dis-obey. So would the same not apply to dis-obeying your parents? It's common sense.
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I'm surprised that you cannot seem to comprehend why it is sinful to attend a Protestant service. They do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus! They are a bunch of heretics and their service is an insult to God. The SSPX web-site says one should not attend a Protestant service.
Agree with the bold.
employed or attending doesnt = believing/participating/promulgating
As far as attending the Novus Ordo? I'll let Archbishop LeFebvre answer that:
"The Novus Ordo Missae, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules, is empregnated with the spirit of Protestantism...it bears within it a poison harmful to the Faith".
I agree.
Regarding obeying your parents if they want you to attend the NO, the Bible says that if an angel of light were to preach something against the truth you are allowed to dis-obey. So would the same not apply to dis-obeying your parents? It's common sense.
It isn't an issue when you are no longer a minor. but when you are still under their rule...
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Attending is a sin because you are submitting yourself to their heretical services.
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Attending is a sin because you are submitting yourself to their heretical services.
Explain.
Is it also a sin in your opinion for children to obey parents that send them to public school, which exposes them to far worse things than the Novus Ordo or even a Protestant service?
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Are you sure? Ask your (SSPX) priest is it is sinful to passively attend a Protestant service?
I have asked 2 priests if it is a sin to be employed as a musician for a Protestant church (either for pay or without pay) and both have said no. So I don't see how it can be sinful to attend the NO esp. if your parents command you to. You don't have to receive Communion.
@J.Paul - emphasis on "taking part".
Being employed is not the same thing as taking part to join in prayer or listening to a sermon by a heretic.
Even to be present at such goings on is a bad thing to do. Any priest who does not warn you about this is deficient in not doing so.
If you are there, and are exposed to un-Catholic words, interpretations of scripture, and essentially Protestantized rituals, you are in danger. We are not to look upon impure images and materials. Impurity and danger is to be found in false or corrupted liturgies as well. You cannot help seeing things that you should not see, and hearing things that a Catholic should not hear..
As an aside, the NO is in itself a sacrelidge. Being present(knowingly) at such is a sin.
JMJ
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Attending is a sin because you are submitting yourself to their heretical services.
Explain.
Is it also a sin in your opinion for children to obey parents that send them to public school, which exposes them to far worse things than the Novus Ordo or even a Protestant service?
Objectively, yes, absolutely.( for the parents to send a child to such schools).
You are to obey all lawful commands of your parents which don't endanger your piety or Faith.
JMJ
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So are you recommending that children being sent to public school refuse to attend school?
Being employed is not the same thing as taking part to join in prayer or listening to a sermon by a heretic.
What if you are employed but don't take part in prayer? Are you saying that it is a sin, in of itself, for a Catholic to be employed at a Protestant church as a musician?
Being present at a Protestant (or Buddhist, or ____) service does not automatically mean that you actively participate in their heresy. For all all I know, a Catholic employed as an organist for a Protestant church could be praying the Rosary silently during the "pastor's" sermon instead of attentively listening.
I don't mean to be condescending. But the main issue of this thread is one close to my heart.
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Being employed at a Protestant church isn't necessarily a sin (although if I may ask, why do you work there anyway?). But you know, by admitting you agree with ABL's comment on the NO and the comment I made above that, you've already rejected your own argument.
Kids who attend public schools that recognize the evil that goes on there may request to be home-schooled. If their parents won't homeschool them, I guess they would have to put up with going there. But that is completely different from attending different forms of worship.
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Being employed at a Protestant church isn't necessarily a sin (although if I may ask, why do you work there anyway?). But you know, by admitting you agree with ABL's comment on the NO and the comment I made above that, you've already rejected your own argument.
No I didn't. But I think that you just rejected your own argument (at least I think it was yours, I may have misread) that children can reject their parent's authority if the parents want their children to attend the Novus Ordo. If being employed at a Protestant service isn't sinful, how can passively attending the NO be sinful? And if it's not sinful how can children reject their parent's authority?
I never said I worked at a Protestant church, but if I did, it would be out of monetary need.
Kids who attend public schools that recognize the evil that goes on there may request to be home-schooled. If their parents won't homeschool them, I guess they would have to put up with going there. But that is completely different from attending different forms of worship.
Agreed. Public schooling is arguably worse though.
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Well, I guess I should say if you're a Catholic then it IS a sin to be employed at a Protestant church.
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So are you recommending that children being sent to public school refuse to attend school?
Being employed is not the same thing as taking part to join in prayer or listening to a sermon by a heretic.
What if you are employed but don't take part in prayer? Are you saying that it is a sin, in of itself, for a Catholic to be employed at a Protestant church as a musician?
Being present at a Protestant (or Buddhist, or ____) service does not automatically mean that you actively participate in their heresy. For all all I know, a Catholic employed as an organist for a Protestant church could be praying the Rosary silently during the "pastor's" sermon instead of attentively listening.
I don't mean to be condescending. But the main issue of this thread is one close to my heart.
Not taking part requires you to do Nothing! Literally standing there protesting the service. It is licit to attend on say a wedding or funeral of a family member but to attempt to use it as a Sunday obligation being fullfilled as you suggested to the lad is rediculous. You cannot play an organ at a novus ordo or protestant service. If you do ANYTHING that makes ANYONE believe that their service is legitamate then you are in the sin of scandal.
I suggest you read the links I put up BEFORE you made your post since they are articles made by SSPX Priests that say to not attend the Novus Ordo.
I can find something on sending ones kids to Public schools too if you want, since it is the position of the SSPX that Society Schools or Home Schools are the best forms of education for your children. Baring necessity of course.
I don't believe working for a Protestant Church could be licit, it's like someone trying to justify working for an abortionist saying "but I don't kill the babies"
Mortal Sin is Mortal Sin, Scandal(Making someone believe that doing something wrong is ok) is Scandal.
I would advise him to not attend the Novus Ordo. If he lived within a couple hours of me, I might even pick him up take him to his nearest Tridentine Mass and try and arrange someone there to pick him up every Sunday.
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I never suggested that he use the Novus Ordo as his Sunday obligation. Nor did I say that working at a Protestant service fulfills mine. Nor did I recommend him to attend the Novus Ordo. I recommended that he obey his parents.
Playing the organ (i.e., employing a talent) is not active participation. It would be a sin to receive or distribute Protestant communion, etc. I don't see how playing the organ at a Protestant church makes a theoretical someone think that the Protestant church is the true religion.
Being alive inside a Protestant church during their service and playing the organ for them doesn't (or at least shouldn't) make anyone in the pew feel that their religion is the right one. If that was scandal, then it would be scandal to even walk by a Protestant church because passersby might suspect that you are a member of that church. Its common knowledge that churches often employ people of different or no religion to be musicians.
Well, I guess I should say if you're a Catholic then it IS a sin to be employed at a Protestant church.
Depends.
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No, Vladimir, you don't seem to understand. Like LP said, working at a Protestant church even if you aren't Protestant is like working at an abortion clinic and saying "Oh, but I don't support abortion". Playing the organ at a Protestant church implies you have no major problem with their religion. That is not a Catholic position to hold. Are you under the impression that the Protestants are all saved too?
Dis-obeying your parents under certain circuмstances is ok. I dis-obeyed my Protestant father whenvever he tried to get me to go to chruch with him. Are you saying I should have obeyed him and gone? Of course, my Traditional Catholic mother would have said no to him anyway, but even is she wanted me to go as well I wouldn't. You obey God before you obey anyone else, even your parents. Just because God wants us to obey our parents doesn't mean we are required to obey them when they are clearly wrong. That is blind obedience, which as Archbishop LeFebvre says has never been Catholic.
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No, Vladimir, you don't seem to understand. Like LP said, working at a Protestant church even if you aren't Protestant is like working at an abortion clinic and saying "Oh, but I don't support abortion".
No it isn't. Although I do wonder whether or not it would be instrinsically sinful to be employed to paint the walls of an abortion clinic, or put in the tiles, or clean the windows, etc.
Playing the organ at a Protestant church implies you have no major problem with their religion. That is not a Catholic position to hold.
No it doesn't. It implies that I am satisfying a monetary need by employing a skill at a workplace.
Are you under the impression that the Protestants are all saved too?
Reply:
"...it is a very gross error of certain simple people, that think it to be enough to their salvation, if they believe in Christ, and that he died for their sins, although they believe not many other things; for example's sake, those which belong to Sacraments, Sacrifice of the Church, and other such like points of faith. For so should almost all sects of heretics be saved, for that all...do embrace Christ...and believe that he died for their sins. And so by this means shall be saved the Montanists and Novations...the Arians, Macedonians...Moneothelites, and such like pests of the Church. Wherefore then, hath the Church in all ages vehemently opposed herself against heresies? Wherefore doth the Apostle command us to avoid a heretical man after one or two reprehensions? Wherefore should we beware of their very speechs, as a certain infectious canker?"
"In vain then are all these things spoken and done, if salvation may be obtained together with heresy...let us imagine (saith St. Augstine) a man to be chaste, continent, not covetous, not a server of idols, liberal to the poor, no man's enemy, not contentious, patient, quiet...somber, frugal...but yet a heretic: let there be no doubt at all to any, but that such a one, for this only thing, in that he is a heretic, shall not possess the Kingdom of God."
"For as that man who offendeth in one commandment is made guilty of all, and looseth his whole justice, although he keep the rest of the commandments, because he contempteth the lawmaker himself who made the whole law...so he that denieth obstinately but one article of the faith, though he retain the rest, is made guilty of his whole Religion, and looseth all his Faith and Religion..."
"Search where you will: out of this Church, you shall find nothing but death. To be short, he which is not in the Church hath no God: he hath his own proper judgement, his fantasy, and his own presumption for his God: he maketh himself an Idol, and doth worship only his own imagination in place of God. If such a man calleth himself a Christian, that is as the Devil often sayeth he is Christ, and if if he be killed for his heresy, that is no martydom, but the reward of his heresy...dying he goeth...eternally to the darkness, which he hath worshiped, and to his head, which is the Devil. There is no martyrdom nor death precious before God but in the Catholic Church..."
No.
Dis-obeying your parents under certain circuмstances is ok. I dis-obeyed my Protestant father whenvever he tried to get me to go to chruch with him. Are you saying I should have obeyed him and gone? Of course, my Traditional Catholic mother would have said no to him anyway, but even is she wanted me to go as well I wouldn't. You obey God before you obey anyone else, even your parents. Just because God wants us to obey our parents doesn't mean we are required to obey them when they are clearly wrong. That is blind obedience, which as Archbishop LeFebvre says has never been Catholic.
Emphasis added.
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You can't practice your organ-playing skills at a Traditional Catholic Church?
And working at an abortion clinic IS a sin and an evil.
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You can't practice your organ-playing skills at a Traditional Catholic Church?
Actually, no. Formerly, I was more liberal in giving out personal information over the web, but I've grown supsicious and more cautious. But let it be suffice to say that I am in a position when I hardly ever am able to even attend Holy Mass, let alone be emplyed at a traditional chapel.
And working at an abortion clinic IS a sin and an evil.
I don't disagree. But being hired to come once a year (or whenever) to paint the walls or clean the toilets is not sinful (or is it?). Similarly, I am not a full time (or even part time) *member* of a Protestant church, but as an employee, I come at an appointed time weekly to perform a paid task. Tis but a business transaction - nothing more, nothing less.
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So are you recommending that children being sent to public school refuse to attend school?
Being employed is not the same thing as taking part to join in prayer or listening to a sermon by a heretic.
What if you are employed but don't take part in prayer? Are you saying that it is a sin, in of itself, for a Catholic to be employed at a Protestant church as a musician?
Being present at a Protestant (or Buddhist, or ____) service does not automatically mean that you actively participate in their heresy. For all all I know, a Catholic employed as an organist for a Protestant church could be praying the Rosary silently during the "pastor's" sermon instead of attentively listening.
I don't mean to be condescending. But the main issue of this thread is one close to my heart.
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You can't practice your organ-playing skills at a Traditional Catholic Church?
Actually, no. Formerly, I was more liberal in giving out personal information over the web, but I've grown supsicious and more cautious. But let it be suffice to say that I am in a position when I hardly ever am able to even attend Holy Mass, let alone be emplyed at a traditional chapel.
And working at an abortion clinic IS a sin and an evil.
I don't disagree. But being hired to come once a year (or whenever) to paint the walls or clean the toilets is not sinful (or is it?). Similarly, I am not a full time (or even part time) *member* of a Protestant church, but as an employee, I come at an appointed time weekly to perform a paid task. Tis but a business transaction - nothing more, nothing less.
Even coming once a year is ridiculous. An abortion clinic is full of evil. The only thing a Catholic should have to do with one is to stand outside and pray/protest.
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I never suggested that he use the Novus Ordo as his Sunday obligation. Nor did I say that working at a Protestant service fulfills mine. Nor did I recommend him to attend the Novus Ordo. I recommended that he obey his parents.
Playing the organ (i.e., employing a talent) is not active participation. It would be a sin to receive or distribute Protestant communion, etc. I don't see how playing the organ at a Protestant church makes a theoretical someone think that the Protestant church is the true religion.
Being alive inside a Protestant church during their service and playing the organ for them doesn't (or at least shouldn't) make anyone in the pew feel that their religion is the right one. If that was scandal, then it would be scandal to even walk by a Protestant church because passersby might suspect that you are a member of that church. Its common knowledge that churches often employ people of different or no religion to be musicians.
Well, I guess I should say if you're a Catholic then it IS a sin to be employed at a Protestant church.
Depends.
It breaks down this way,
1) Echoing SS, for a true Catholic it is sinful to play organ at heretical liturgies due to the fact that it is indeed a sin to endanger your faith by placing yourself willfully in a near occasion of that sin.
2) Now to clarify your understanding, playing an organ at a non-Catholic endevour which is outside of the Chuch is not equvilent to attending an un-Catholic and sacriledgious service within the percieved confines of the Catholic Church. You are in a quandry simply because you do not have a broad enough understanding of the Holy Faith and the Church's mind as it relates to these matters. As S.S. suggests access the posted links and research the pre-Vaticaan II Popes teaching on these subjects and that should go a long way to remedy your confusion.
JMJ
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As you said, my own understanding of the Faith is limited, which is why I trust my priest when he tells me that it is not sinful to be employed by a Protestant church.
As far as "exposing" myself to the occasions of sin, etc - would be sinful for you to even walk outside when other people are around because you might overhear something sinful, etc?
Where do you work? I'd almost be certain that if it wasn't an overtly traditional Catholic employer you would be exposed to the same amount, if not more, of occasions of sin as I am when I am in the workplace.
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Do you even attend a Traditional chapel? Because I know the SSPX says not to attend a Protestant service unless it's a wedding or funeral, and even in that circuмstance they say you shouldn't participate in their prayers. So that being said, I'd find it hard to believe that an SSPX priest would tell you it's ok to play the organ at a Protestant church. There's no way you can do that without being subjected to the temptations of becoming a Protestant.
No, it's not a sin to walk outside just because you MIGHT hear something such as cussing or gossip, but it isn't a sin to hear that unless you want to. You're drawing hyperbole conclusions from our posts. What we're saying is that you shouldn't subject yourself to people who deny the Church of Christ.
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Do you even attend a Traditional chapel?
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I would attend any traditional chapel had I the liberty, but at present I occasionally attend Holy Mass at a FSSP parish, which is where I asked the priest - whom from my experience with in the confessional, and hearing his sermons I greatly trust.
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Because I know the SSPX says not to attend a Protestant service unless it's a wedding or funeral, and even in that circuмstance they say you shouldn't participate in their prayers.
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I don't disagree. Playing an instrument is not participation in prayer. Whether or not I am present and playing the organ does not affect their beliefs, it is a mere musical/auditory aid for many whose vocal skills leave much to be desired. I never join in their prayers; I refuse to even participate in the external physical gesture of bowing my head when the rest of the people are doing so at the "pastor's" orders.
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So that being said, I'd find it hard to believe that an SSPX priest would tell you it's ok to play the organ at a Protestant church. There's no way you can do that without being subjected to the temptations of becoming a Protestant.
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When I become attracted to idiocy, mediocrity, and melodramatic sentimentality that above *might* apply.
Seriously though, I pray the Rosary when I am not playing the organ for them. I hardly hear whatever they say. Plus, I have noticed that their readings from the Sacred Scriptures are almost identical to the ones I'm subjected to at the Novus Ordo.
Aside from that the only *threat* would be having a hymn stuck in my head after playing through 5 verses. But you'd be amazed the the same hymns you sing at your SSPX chapel are used by countless other Protestant churches (many of the hymns at least) and in fact were written by heretics.
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No, it's not a sin to walk outside just because you MIGHT hear something such as cussing or gossip, but it isn't a sin to hear that unless you want to. You're drawing hyperbole conclusions from our posts. What we're saying is that you shouldn't subject yourself to people who deny the Church of Christ.
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Are you a law abiding citizen of the United States?
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So despite the advice from three different people on this thread you want to continue to say it's ok to attend a Protestant service and play the organ for them? Sorry, but that is not a Catholic position to hold. I've said everything I possibly can to assure you otherwise. I have nothing else to say on the matter.
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So despite the advice from three different people on this thread you want to continue to say it's ok to attend a Protestant service and play the organ for them? Sorry, but that is not a Catholic position to hold. I've said everything I possibly can to assure you otherwise. I have nothing else to say on the matter.
It seems much in line with Catholic spirituality to trust your confessor rather than anonymous members (be they three in number) of an online forum, the spiritual state of whom is completely unknown.