Author Topic: Advice please (Read 3206 times)

Vladimir · « **Reply #30 on:** June 20, 2011, 08:14:52 PM »

So are you recommending that children being sent to public school refuse to attend school?

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Being employed is not the same thing as taking part to join in prayer or listening to a sermon by a heretic.

What if you are employed but don't take part in prayer? Are you saying that it is a sin, in of itself, for a Catholic to be employed at a Protestant church as a musician?

Being present at a Protestant (or Buddhist, or ____) service does not automatically mean that you actively participate in their heresy. For all all I know, a Catholic employed as an organist for a Protestant church could be praying the Rosary silently during the "pastor's" sermon instead of attentively listening.

I don't mean to be condescending. But the main issue of this thread is one close to my heart.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #31 on:** June 20, 2011, 09:12:44 PM »

Being employed at a Protestant church isn't necessarily a sin (although if I may ask, why do you work there anyway?). But you know, by admitting you agree with ABL's comment on the NO and the comment I made above that, you've already rejected your own argument.

Kids who attend public schools that recognize the evil that goes on there may request to be home-schooled. If their parents won't homeschool them, I guess they would have to put up with going there. But that is completely different from attending different forms of worship.

Vladimir · « **Reply #32 on:** June 20, 2011, 09:35:14 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Being employed at a Protestant church isn't necessarily a sin (although if I may ask, why do you work there anyway?). But you know, by admitting you agree with ABL's comment on the NO and the comment I made above that, you've already rejected your own argument.

No I didn't. But I think that you just rejected your own argument (at least I think it was yours, I may have misread) that children can reject their parent's authority if the parents want their children to attend the Novus Ordo. If being employed at a Protestant service isn't sinful, how can passively attending the NO be sinful? And if it's not sinful how can children reject their parent's authority?

I never said I worked at a Protestant church, but if I did, it would be out of monetary need.

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Kids who attend public schools that recognize the evil that goes on there may request to be home-schooled. If their parents won't homeschool them, I guess they would have to put up with going there. But that is completely different from attending different forms of worship.

Agreed. Public schooling is arguably worse though.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #33 on:** June 20, 2011, 09:37:44 PM »

Well, I guess I should say if you're a Catholic then it IS a sin to be employed at a Protestant church.

LordPhan · « **Reply #34 on:** June 20, 2011, 10:46:04 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

So are you recommending that children being sent to public school refuse to attend school?

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Being employed is not the same thing as taking part to join in prayer or listening to a sermon by a heretic.

What if you are employed but don't take part in prayer? Are you saying that it is a sin, in of itself, for a Catholic to be employed at a Protestant church as a musician?

Being present at a Protestant (or Buddhist, or ____) service does not automatically mean that you actively participate in their heresy. For all all I know, a Catholic employed as an organist for a Protestant church could be praying the Rosary silently during the "pastor's" sermon instead of attentively listening.

I don't mean to be condescending. But the main issue of this thread is one close to my heart.

Not taking part requires you to do Nothing! Literally standing there protesting the service. It is licit to attend on say a wedding or funeral of a family member but to attempt to use it as a Sunday obligation being fullfilled as you suggested to the lad is rediculous. You cannot play an organ at a novus ordo or protestant service. If you do ANYTHING that makes ANYONE believe that their service is legitamate then you are in the sin of scandal.

I suggest you read the links I put up BEFORE you made your post since they are articles made by SSPX Priests that say to not attend the Novus Ordo.

I can find something on sending ones kids to Public schools too if you want, since it is the position of the SSPX that Society Schools or Home Schools are the best forms of education for your children. Baring necessity of course.

I don't believe working for a Protestant Church could be licit, it's like someone trying to justify working for an abortionist saying "but I don't kill the babies"
Mortal Sin is Mortal Sin, Scandal(Making someone believe that doing something wrong is ok) is Scandal.

I would advise him to not attend the Novus Ordo. If he lived within a couple hours of me, I might even pick him up take him to his nearest Tridentine Mass and try and arrange someone there to pick him up every Sunday.

Vladimir · « **Reply #35 on:** June 20, 2011, 11:54:23 PM »

I never suggested that he use the Novus Ordo as his Sunday obligation. Nor did I say that working at a Protestant service fulfills mine. Nor did I recommend him to attend the Novus Ordo. I recommended that he obey his parents.

Playing the organ (i.e., employing a talent) is not active participation. It would be a sin to receive or distribute Protestant communion, etc. I don't see how playing the organ at a Protestant church makes a theoretical someone think that the Protestant church is the true religion.

Being alive inside a Protestant church during their service and playing the organ for them doesn't (or at least shouldn't) make anyone in the pew feel that their religion is the right one. If that was scandal, then it would be scandal to even walk by a Protestant church because passersby might suspect that you are a member of that church. Its common knowledge that churches often employ people of different or no religion to be musicians.

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Well, I guess I should say if you're a Catholic then it IS a sin to be employed at a Protestant church.

Depends.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #36 on:** June 21, 2011, 10:11:28 AM »

No, Vladimir, you don't seem to understand. Like LP said, working at a Protestant church even if you aren't Protestant is like working at an abortion clinic and saying "Oh, but I don't support abortion". Playing the organ at a Protestant church implies you have no major problem with their religion. That is not a Catholic position to hold. Are you under the impression that the Protestants are all saved too?

Dis-obeying your parents under certain circuмstances is ok. I dis-obeyed my Protestant father whenvever he tried to get me to go to chruch with him. Are you saying I should have obeyed him and gone? Of course, my Traditional Catholic mother would have said no to him anyway, but even is she wanted me to go as well I wouldn't. You obey God before you obey anyone else, even your parents. Just because God wants us to obey our parents doesn't mean we are required to obey them when they are clearly wrong. That is blind obedience, which as Archbishop LeFebvre says has never been Catholic.

Vladimir · « **Reply #37 on:** June 21, 2011, 11:32:14 AM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

No, Vladimir, you don't seem to understand. Like LP said, working at a Protestant church even if you aren't Protestant is like working at an abortion clinic and saying "Oh, but I don't support abortion".

No it isn't. Although I do wonder whether or not it would be instrinsically sinful to be employed to paint the walls of an abortion clinic, or put in the tiles, or clean the windows, etc.

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Playing the organ at a Protestant church implies you have no major problem with their religion. That is not a Catholic position to hold.

No it doesn't. It implies that I am satisfying a monetary need by employing a skill at a workplace.

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Are you under the impression that the Protestants are all saved too?

Reply:

Quote from: from A Consultation what Faith and Religion is best to be Imbraced by Leonardus Lessius

"...it is a very gross error of certain simple people, that think it to be enough to their salvation, if they believe in Christ, and that he died for their sins, although they believe not many other things; for example's sake, those which belong to Sacraments, Sacrifice of the Church, and other such like points of faith. For so should almost all sects of heretics be saved, for that all...do embrace Christ...and believe that he died for their sins. And so by this means shall be saved the Montanists and Novations...the Arians, Macedonians...Moneothelites, and such like pests of the Church. Wherefore then, hath the Church in all ages vehemently opposed herself against heresies? Wherefore doth the Apostle command us to avoid a heretical man after one or two reprehensions? Wherefore should we beware of their very speechs, as a certain infectious canker?"

"In vain then are all these things spoken and done, if salvation may be obtained together with heresy...let us imagine (saith St. Augstine) a man to be chaste, continent, not covetous, not a server of idols, liberal to the poor, no man's enemy, not contentious, patient, quiet...somber, frugal...but yet a heretic: let there be no doubt at all to any, but that such a one, for this only thing, in that he is a heretic, shall not possess the Kingdom of God."

"For as that man who offendeth in one commandment is made guilty of all, and looseth his whole justice, although he keep the rest of the commandments, because he contempteth the lawmaker himself who made the whole law...so he that denieth obstinately but one article of the faith, though he retain the rest, is made guilty of his whole Religion, and looseth all his Faith and Religion..."

Quote from: from The Firme Foundation of the Catholic Religion by Jean de Caumont

"Search where you will: out of this Church, you shall find nothing but death. To be short, he which is not in the Church hath no God: he hath his own proper judgement, his fantasy, and his own presumption for his God: he maketh himself an Idol, and doth worship only his own imagination in place of God. If such a man calleth himself a Christian, that is as the Devil often sayeth he is Christ, and if if he be killed for his heresy, that is no martydom, but the reward of his heresy...dying he goeth...eternally to the darkness, which he hath worshiped, and to his head, which is the Devil. There is no martyrdom nor death precious before God but in the Catholic Church..."

No.

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Dis-obeying your parents under certain circuмstances is ok. I dis-obeyed my Protestant father whenvever he tried to get me to go to chruch with him. Are you saying I should have obeyed him and gone? Of course, my Traditional Catholic mother would have said no to him anyway, but even is she wanted me to go as well I wouldn't. You obey God before you obey anyone else, even your parents. Just because God wants us to obey our parents doesn't mean we are required to obey them when they are clearly wrong. That is blind obedience, which as Archbishop LeFebvre says has never been Catholic.

Emphasis added.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #38 on:** June 21, 2011, 03:36:27 PM »

You can't practice your organ-playing skills at a Traditional Catholic Church?

And working at an abortion clinic IS a sin and an evil.

Vladimir · « **Reply #39 on:** June 21, 2011, 03:42:38 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

You can't practice your organ-playing skills at a Traditional Catholic Church?

Actually, no. Formerly, I was more liberal in giving out personal information over the web, but I've grown supsicious and more cautious. But let it be suffice to say that I am in a position when I hardly ever am able to even attend Holy Mass, let alone be emplyed at a traditional chapel.

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And working at an abortion clinic IS a sin and an evil.

I don't disagree. But being hired to come once a year (or whenever) to paint the walls or clean the toilets is not sinful (or is it?). Similarly, I am not a full time (or even part time) *member* of a Protestant church, but as an employee, I come at an appointed time weekly to perform a paid task. Tis but a business transaction - nothing more, nothing less.

JPaul · « **Reply #40 on:** June 21, 2011, 03:48:56 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

So are you recommending that children being sent to public school refuse to attend school?

Quote
Being employed is not the same thing as taking part to join in prayer or listening to a sermon by a heretic.

What if you are employed but don't take part in prayer? Are you saying that it is a sin, in of itself, for a Catholic to be employed at a Protestant church as a musician?

Being present at a Protestant (or Buddhist, or ____) service does not automatically mean that you actively participate in their heresy. For all all I know, a Catholic employed as an organist for a Protestant church could be praying the Rosary silently during the "pastor's" sermon instead of attentively listening.

I don't mean to be condescending. But the main issue of this thread is one close to my heart.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #41 on:** June 21, 2011, 03:55:37 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
You can't practice your organ-playing skills at a Traditional Catholic Church?

Actually, no. Formerly, I was more liberal in giving out personal information over the web, but I've grown supsicious and more cautious. But let it be suffice to say that I am in a position when I hardly ever am able to even attend Holy Mass, let alone be emplyed at a traditional chapel.

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And working at an abortion clinic IS a sin and an evil.

I don't disagree. But being hired to come once a year (or whenever) to paint the walls or clean the toilets is not sinful (or is it?). Similarly, I am not a full time (or even part time) *member* of a Protestant church, but as an employee, I come at an appointed time weekly to perform a paid task. Tis but a business transaction - nothing more, nothing less.

Even coming once a year is ridiculous. An abortion clinic is full of evil. The only thing a Catholic should have to do with one is to stand outside and pray/protest.

JPaul · « **Reply #42 on:** June 21, 2011, 04:13:34 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

I never suggested that he use the Novus Ordo as his Sunday obligation. Nor did I say that working at a Protestant service fulfills mine. Nor did I recommend him to attend the Novus Ordo. I recommended that he obey his parents.

Playing the organ (i.e., employing a talent) is not active participation. It would be a sin to receive or distribute Protestant communion, etc. I don't see how playing the organ at a Protestant church makes a theoretical someone think that the Protestant church is the true religion.

Being alive inside a Protestant church during their service and playing the organ for them doesn't (or at least shouldn't) make anyone in the pew feel that their religion is the right one. If that was scandal, then it would be scandal to even walk by a Protestant church because passersby might suspect that you are a member of that church. Its common knowledge that churches often employ people of different or no religion to be musicians.

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Well, I guess I should say if you're a Catholic then it IS a sin to be employed at a Protestant church.

Depends.

It breaks down this way,

1) Echoing SS, for a true Catholic it is sinful to play organ at heretical liturgies due to the fact that it is indeed a sin to endanger your faith by placing yourself willfully in a near occasion of that sin.

2) Now to clarify your understanding, playing an organ at a non-Catholic endevour which is outside of the Chuch is not equvilent to attending an un-Catholic and sacriledgious service within the percieved confines of the Catholic Church. You are in a quandry simply because you do not have a broad enough understanding of the Holy Faith and the Church's mind as it relates to these matters. As S.S. suggests access the posted links and research the pre-Vaticaan II Popes teaching on these subjects and that should go a long way to remedy your confusion.

JMJ

Vladimir · « **Reply #43 on:** June 21, 2011, 04:14:38 PM »

As you said, my own understanding of the Faith is limited, which is why I trust my priest when he tells me that it is not sinful to be employed by a Protestant church.

As far as "exposing" myself to the occasions of sin, etc - would be sinful for you to even walk outside when other people are around because you might overhear something sinful, etc?

Where do you work? I'd almost be certain that if it wasn't an overtly traditional Catholic employer you would be exposed to the same amount, if not more, of occasions of sin as I am when I am in the workplace.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #44 on:** June 21, 2011, 08:14:14 PM »

Do you even attend a Traditional chapel? Because I know the SSPX says not to attend a Protestant service unless it's a wedding or funeral, and even in that circuмstance they say you shouldn't participate in their prayers. So that being said, I'd find it hard to believe that an SSPX priest would tell you it's ok to play the organ at a Protestant church. There's no way you can do that without being subjected to the temptations of becoming a Protestant.

No, it's not a sin to walk outside just because you MIGHT hear something such as cussing or gossip, but it isn't a sin to hear that unless you want to. You're drawing hyperbole conclusions from our posts. What we're saying is that you shouldn't subject yourself to people who deny the Church of Christ.