Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: 2Vermont on December 06, 2014, 06:38:51 PM
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For those of us who do not have access to sacramental confession, does an Act of Perfect Contrition suffice until we can get to confession?
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For those of us who do not have access to sacramental confession, does an Act of Perfect Contrition suffice until we can get to confession?
You can never know if your contrition is perfect enough to forgive your sins so it is best to find a way to get to confession.
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If you meditate deeply on the passion of Christ, and start to shed tears because YOU/I are the person who caused His suffering, because we offended Him, you can be sure you just experienced a Perfect Act of Contrition.
Also kiss the Pardon Crucifix, and make sure it is properly blessed. If you don't have a Pardon Crucifix get one, but don't forget the blessing, Pardon Crucifix has a special blessing.
None of the above take the place of Confession, so get there as soon as possible.
God does provide.
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I have another question.
Can one go to confession with an Orthodox priest? If so, are they done in a similar fashion and would they even hear the confession of a Catholic?
An Orthodox priest is the closest thing I have to going to a valid priest locally.
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I think this short book on Confession (http://www.saintsbooks.net/books/Fr.%20John%20Furniss%20-%20Confession.html) is very helpful for learning how to make a good act of contrition.
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I have another question.
Can one go to confession with an Orthodox priest? If so, are they done in a similar fashion and would they even hear the confession of a Catholic?
An Orthodox priest is the closest thing I have to going to a valid priest locally.
How about Novus Ordo priests?!? Are they considered to be priests with all the faculties expected of a Catholic priest?
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I have another question.
Can one go to confession with an Orthodox priest? If so, are they done in a similar fashion and would they even hear the confession of a Catholic?
An Orthodox priest is the closest thing I have to going to a valid priest locally.
How about Novus Ordo priests?!? Are they considered to be priests with all the faculties expected of a Catholic priest?
If ten people answer you on this forum, I would not be surprised if you got ten different answers.
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For those of us who do not have access to sacramental confession, does an Act of Perfect Contrition suffice until we can get to confession?
According to the Council of Trent, perfect contrition when combined with an ardent desire / intention / vow to receive the Sacrament would restore the soul to a state of justification. Most Catholics forget about the intention to receive the Sacrament part.
As others have pointed out, it's very difficult to know when one has received the grace to make an act of perfect contrition, and this uncertainty should be used to inspire in us an even more ardent desire to receive the Sacrament of Confession.
IMO, many Eastern Rite priests and older Novus Ordo priests (those ordained before about 1967) can validly administer the Sacrament. You can even seek out on older Novus Ordo priest and invoke Benedict XVI's "motu" to request that they use the Traditional Rite. Summorum states that the faithful's request to receive any of the Sacraments in the Traditional Rite must be respected and accommodated. You'll most likely have to bring a copy of the Old Rite for them though because they won't have access to it. If they are not comfortable with the Latin, just bring an English version and make sure they properly pronounce the words of absolution.
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I have another question.
Can one go to confession with an Orthodox priest? If so, are they done in a similar fashion and would they even hear the confession of a Catholic?
An Orthodox priest is the closest thing I have to going to a valid priest locally.
One can approach an Orthodox priest for the Sacrament only in danger of death. Problem is that most of the Orthodox would refuse you the Sacraments even in danger of death due to their contempt for the Catholic Church. Nor do the Orthodox have the requisite jurisdiction to validly hear Confessions (except when it's supplied by the Church in danger of death).
Eastern Rites have valid orders. Also, try to find older Novus Ordo priests (there are still plenty around, perhaps tucked away in nursing homes). Just do a search for Eastern Rite churches (Byzantine / Ukrainian / Maronite / Chaledean Catholic). Just around here there are about a dozen of them. Plus there's a convenient "Directory of Clergy" here in the Cleveland Diocese which even lists the priests' ordination dates.
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If you want to PM me with your general location, I can dig around the web for some options.
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Good luck finding Novus Ordo priests over 70 years old who is willing, and able, to properly perform the judgment of your sins!
Whether they correctly judge your sins or not has nothing to do with whether they can validly administer the Sacrament.
I wouldn't trust the validly of the schismatic Eastern rites unless in each particular case one investigates for positive evidence of validity.
On what grounds do you call the Eastern Rites "schismatic"? Are you confusing these with the "Orthodox"? You are expressing what's called negative doubt, i.e. "unless you positively establish its validity, then it's doubtful". Wrong. Quite to the contrary, there must be positive doubt before one is required to avoid the Sacrament. Quite a few even Sedevacantist groups have looked into the Eastern Rites and I know of no one who questions their validity.
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Do we know what is needed for a vaild absolution?
1 we must have contrition
2 we must confess our sins
3 the priest absolves us (the words needed for validity are according to catholic doctrine )
I absolve you of your sins in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy ghost
simple
if a priest is sitting in the confessional ( :scratchchin:) then he has the disposition to hear confessions.
what is needed for priestly validity?
laying on of hands and as in every valid church ordination the words that say that the bishop is now calling the person in front of him a priest.
how long will hack theologians continue to call valid ordinations into question because of a conjunction?
the church never had the practice of investigating everything all the time or to paint with a broad brush whole groups of people
when did it become catholic to assume the bad intent of the whole episcopacy and priesthood of the church in every action.
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yeah thumb it down the question asked was simple originally, about perfect contrition and devolved quickly into what priest could hear confession.
honestly only real mind benders could turn one of the two ways to right our soul after shipwreck (to quote Trent) into freaking mental gymnastics.
(http://www.londonjuniormustangs.com/uploads/1/3/6/1/13617815/4231885_orig.gif)
baptism: just add water, we may need to hold you under a little longer to get that stain out :roll-laugh1:
(http://www.assumptionaz.org/assets/images/baptism1.JPG)
penance: add sorrow and a priest (ouzo optional)
(http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/11900000/I-m-sorry-lilyz-11952970-357-422.jpg)
(http://rnajtn376nq1w0ss.zippykid.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Priest.jpg)
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wow still thumbed down i thought the cat would have swayed you :roll-laugh1:
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Good luck finding Novus Ordo priests over 70 years old who is willing, and able, to properly perform the judgment of your sins!
Whether they correctly judge your sins or not has nothing to do with whether they can validly administer the Sacrament.
It matters, because the Novus Ordo got themselves to the point where hell doesn't exist, those that do believe in it, many hardly think mortal sin is possible. They only have a few things on their lists, like genocide, nuclear war, etc. You would have to insist before hand that you deserve absolution, what words to say exactly, and how to move the hand in absolution, or whatever is necessary. Best to stay away completely.
I wouldn't trust the validly of the schismatic Eastern rites unless in each particular case one investigates for positive evidence of validity.
On what grounds do you call the Eastern Rites "schismatic"? Are you confusing these with the "Orthodox"? You are expressing what's called negative doubt, i.e. "unless you positively establish its validity, then it's doubtful". Wrong. Quite to the contrary, there must be positive doubt before one is required to avoid the Sacrament. Quite a few even Sedevacantist groups have looked into the Eastern Rites and I know of no one who questions their validity.
I thought you were only speaking of schismatic Eastern rite priests.
As to the uniate (Catholic) Eastern rites, they are in union with Ecuмenical Rome, under its authority, and have undergone lots of changes, though not so extreme as with the Western rites. Nevertheless, like in the States, some have more changes than others. One good reason is enough to produce a positive doubt. And here is good reason. So each case should be looked into for positive evidence of validity.
There aren't enough facepalms in the world for you, Nado.
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I have another question.
Can one go to confession with an Orthodox priest? If so, are they done in a similar fashion and would they even hear the confession of a Catholic?
An Orthodox priest is the closest thing I have to going to a valid priest locally.
How about Novus Ordo priests?!? Are they considered to be priests with all the faculties expected of a Catholic priest?
I have positive doubt about the validity of all of the Novus Ordo priests in my state. I do not know of any ordained in the Old Rite and I know that the most recent bishop was consecrated in the New Rite.
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Before going on ignorantly speculating about the validity of the post Vatican II sacraments, please consider these facts: Luther’s heresy was declared in 1521 and until today, the Catholic Church has not declared invalid the sacraments administered by most of the Protestant bishops. When the Church baptizes a convert from Protestantism, she uses a conditional formula, which means that in the time span of some five centuries, she still has not decided whether the Apostolic succession ceased in those heretical sects and the sacraments administrated in them are valid or not.
Only regarding the Anglican sect that separated from the Catholic Church in 1534 did the Catholic Church declare its orders invalid and null. However, more than 300 years passed before Pope Leo XIII in 1896 wrote his Encyclical Apostolicae curae clarifying this question regarding the Anglicans.
Thus, if the Holy Catholic Church, which is the source of all wisdom, took and is taking so long to declare orders and sacraments administrated by known heretics as invalid, this teaches us that heresy does not automatically bring about invalidity of orders and the sacraments, as many unwisely conclude.
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Before going on ignorantly speculating about the validity of the post Vatican II sacraments, please consider these facts: Luther’s heresy was declared in 1521 and until today, the Catholic Church has not declared invalid the sacraments administered by most of the Protestant bishops. When the Church baptizes a convert from Protestantism, she uses a conditional formula, which means that in the time span of some five centuries, she still has not decided whether the Apostolic succession ceased in those heretical sects and the sacraments administrated in them are valid or not.
Only regarding the Anglican sect that separated from the Catholic Church in 1534 did the Catholic Church declare its orders invalid and null. However, more than 300 years passed before Pope Leo XIII in 1896 wrote his Encyclical Apostolicae curae clarifying this question regarding the Anglicans.
Thus, if the Holy Catholic Church, which is the source of all wisdom, took and is taking so long to declare orders and sacraments administrated by known heretics as invalid, this teaches us that heresy does not automatically bring about invalidity of orders and the sacraments, as many unwisely conclude.
You are grossly mistaken. Here is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia (1908) that shows the actual history of how Catholic clergy have handled Protestant converts:
"Practically, converts in the United States are almost invariably baptized either absolutely or conditionally, not because the baptism administered by heretics is held to be invalid, but because it is generally impossible to discover whether they had ever been properly baptized. Even in cases where a ceremony had certainly been performed, reasonable doubt of validity will generally remain, on account of either the intention of the administrator or the mode of administration. Still each case must be examined into (S. C. Inquis., 20 Nov., 1878) lest the sacrament be sacrilegiously repeated."
And this differs from what I said, how?
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Before going on ignorantly speculating about the validity of the post Vatican II sacraments, please consider these facts: Luther’s heresy was declared in 1521 and until today, the Catholic Church has not declared invalid the sacraments administered by most of the Protestant bishops. When the Church baptizes a convert from Protestantism, she uses a conditional formula, which means that in the time span of some five centuries, she still has not decided whether the Apostolic succession ceased in those heretical sects and the sacraments administrated in them are valid or not.
Only regarding the Anglican sect that separated from the Catholic Church in 1534 did the Catholic Church declare its orders invalid and null. However, more than 300 years passed before Pope Leo XIII in 1896 wrote his Encyclical Apostolicae curae clarifying this question regarding the Anglicans.
Thus, if the Holy Catholic Church, which is the source of all wisdom, took and is taking so long to declare orders and sacraments administrated by known heretics as invalid, this teaches us that heresy does not automatically bring about invalidity of orders and the sacraments, as many unwisely conclude.
You are grossly mistaken. Here is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia (1908) that shows the actual history of how Catholic clergy have handled Protestant converts:
"Practically, converts in the United States are almost invariably baptized either absolutely or conditionally, not because the baptism administered by heretics is held to be invalid, but because it is generally impossible to discover whether they had ever been properly baptized. Even in cases where a ceremony had certainly been performed, reasonable doubt of validity will generally remain, on account of either the intention of the administrator or the mode of administration. Still each case must be examined into (S. C. Inquis., 20 Nov., 1878) lest the sacrament be sacrilegiously repeated."
And this differs from what I said, how?
It's really only to say that if most Protestants should be conditionally baptized, then even more so the people baptized with the new rite of the Novus Ordo.
The point was to demonstrate that the Church herself exercises extreme prudence in handling the validity of Sacraments by declared HERETICS five centuries ago. Even more so, Catholics in the pew should exercise extreme prudence in declaring invalid the Sacraments granted by the Novus Ordo hierarchy in later decades who to all formal purposes have not been declared as heretics. Evidently sedes as Nado have trouble with this since they do not even know what heresy in the Catholic Church actually means.
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I have another question.
Can one go to confession with an Orthodox priest? If so, are they done in a similar fashion and would they even hear the confession of a Catholic?
An Orthodox priest is the closest thing I have to going to a valid priest locally.
How about Novus Ordo priests?!? Are they considered to be priests with all the faculties expected of a Catholic priest?
I have positive doubt about the validity of all of the Novus Ordo priests in my state. I do not know of any ordained in the Old Rite and I know that the most recent bishop was consecrated in the New Rite.
2Vermont,
I am assuming you live in the state of Vermont. You are within, at most, a 3 (perhaps 4) hour drive from Sacred Heart Church in Lawrence, MA. The parish is run by a Dominican Order of brothers and has a priest on hand 24/7. They are independent of any and all Novus Ordo nonsense. Rent a car, borrow a car, take a bus and drive the 3-4 hours to Lawrence, MA, at least for your Easter duty. The Brothers and the resident priest will receive you warmly and you will be able to receive VALID Sacraments at Sacred Heart. Call the rectory and see if they can set something up for a stay at Sacred Heart or help you with accommodations. The Brothers at Sacred Heart are a Godsend. You can google Sacred Heart Church to get directions, phone numbers, email addresses etc. If you are a sincere Catholic, they will help you.
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I have another question.
Can one go to confession with an Orthodox priest? If so, are they done in a similar fashion and would they even hear the confession of a Catholic?
An Orthodox priest is the closest thing I have to going to a valid priest locally.
How about Novus Ordo priests?!? Are they considered to be priests with all the faculties expected of a Catholic priest?
I have positive doubt about the validity of all of the Novus Ordo priests in my state. I do not know of any ordained in the Old Rite and I know that the most recent bishop was consecrated in the New Rite.
2Vermont,
I am assuming you live in the state of Vermont. You are within, at most, a 3 (perhaps 4) hour drive from Sacred Heart Church in Lawrence, MA. The parish is run by a Dominican Order of brothers and has a priest on hand 24/7. They are independent of any and all Novus Ordo nonsense. Rent a car, borrow a car, take a bus and drive the 3-4 hours to Lawrence, MA, at least for your Easter duty. The Brothers and the resident priest will receive you warmly and you will be able to receive VALID Sacraments at Sacred Heart. Call the rectory and see if they can set something up for a stay at Sacred Heart or help you with accommodations. The Brothers at Sacred Heart are a Godsend. You can google Sacred Heart Church to get directions, phone numbers, email addresses etc. If you are a sincere Catholic, they will help you.
I already have somewhere I attend that is that far away. My husband and I go 4 times a year (hopefully we'll increase that in time). Our next trip is planned for January.
But thank you. :-)
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Before going on ignorantly speculating about the validity of the post Vatican II sacraments, please consider these facts: Luther’s heresy was declared in 1521 and until today, the Catholic Church has not declared invalid the sacraments administered by most of the Protestant bishops. When the Church baptizes a convert from Protestantism, she uses a conditional formula, which means that in the time span of some five centuries, she still has not decided whether the Apostolic succession ceased in those heretical sects and the sacraments administrated in them are valid or not.
Only regarding the Anglican sect that separated from the Catholic Church in 1534 did the Catholic Church declare its orders invalid and null. However, more than 300 years passed before Pope Leo XIII in 1896 wrote his Encyclical Apostolicae curae clarifying this question regarding the Anglicans.
Thus, if the Holy Catholic Church, which is the source of all wisdom, took and is taking so long to declare orders and sacraments administrated by known heretics as invalid, this teaches us that heresy does not automatically bring about invalidity of orders and the sacraments, as many unwisely conclude.
And what's it to you Cantarella? You couldn't care less about the state of my soul or whether I get to confession because I'm just an ignorant, schismatic sede.
Go away.
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SVermont,
Cantarella means well, but she lacks tact when she addresses us. Those of us, who do not agree with her logic.
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You sound like a troll to me.
just for the record trolling is supposed to be the following:
troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
1- quoting basic church teaching is not upsetting to Catholics, quoting opinion might be
2- topic was about confession
3- again topic is about needs for valid confession
:reading:
no troll here
more like Baba Yaga
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Pope Francis touched on the importance of being humble and open to the Lord's correction, encouraging the faithful to offer him their sins to God in order to be saved.
“The humble, poor people that trust in the Lord: these are the ones who are saved and this is the way of the Church, isn’t it?” the Pope asked during his Dec. 16 daily mass in the Vatican's Saint Martha Guesthouse.
“This is the path I must follow, not the path in which I do not listen to His voice, do not accept correction and do not trust in the Lord.”
Pope Francis centered his reflections on the day's readings, taken from the Book of the Prophet Zephaniah and from the Gospel of Matthew, which the pontiff said both speak of a “judgment” on which both salvation and condemnation depend.
While Zephaniah in the first reading talks about a “rebellious and polluted” city, there is still the presence of some who repent of their sins, the Pope observed, saying that this group is the “people of God” who possess the “three characteristics (of) humility, poverty and trust in the Lord.”
However the people in the city who refused to trust in the Lord and accept the corrections he gave him cannot receive salvation because they are closed to it, he said, while it is the meek and the humble who trust that will be saved.
“And that is still valid today, isn’t it? When we look at the holy people of God that is humble, that has its riches in its faith in the Lord, in its trust in the Lord – the humble, poor people that trust in the Lord: these are the ones who are saved.”
The Pope then turned to the gospel reading in which Jesus tells the chief priests and elders the story of a father who asks his two sons to work in their vineyard. While the first son says that he will go and does not, the second initially denies his father’s request, but later goes to work.
In telling this story, Jesus makes it clear to the chief priests and elders that they were not open to the voice of God preached by John the Baptist, adding that this is why tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the kingdom of heaven before they do.
This statement from Jesus echoes the situation of many Christians today who feel “pure” simply because they go to mass and receive communion, the Pope noted, explaining that God asks for more.
“If your heart is not a repentant heart, if you do not listen to the Lord, if you don’t accept correction and you do not trust in Him, your heart is unrepentant,” he said, observing how the Pharisees were “hypocrites” for being scandalized at the attention Jesus gave to prostitutes and tax collectors.
Although they were affronted at Jesus acceptance of the sinners, they then “secretly approached them to vent their passion or to do business,” the pontiff explained, saying that because of their hypocrisy they are not welcome in paradise.
Pope Francis said that this judgment gives hope provided that we have the courage to open our hearts to God, even if that means giving him the full list of our sins.
He recalled the story of a Saint who believed that he had given everything to God with great generosity. However in a conversation with the Lord, the saint was told that there was still something he was holding onto.
When the saint asked what it was that he still had not given, the Lord replied “Your sins,” the pontiff recalled.
The moment in which we are able to tell the Lord “these are my sins – they are not his or hers, they are mine…take them” will be the moment when we become that “meek and humble people” who trust in God, the Pope said, and prayed that “the Lord grant us this grace.”
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/only-a-repentant-heart-will-receive-salvation-pope-francis-says-10707/
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SVermont,
Cantarella means well, but she lacks tact when she addresses us. Those of us, who do not agree with her logic.
I beg to differ. She makes a point of ignoring me and making it clear that she is ignoring me and then chimes in on this thread? Not only does she chime in, but she throws a dig in at the same time. If she ever showed any interest in me as someone other than a schismatic sede, I'd feel differently but she does not. Cantarella is more interested in being right than in being charitable.
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. Cantarella is more interested in being right than in being charitable.
Give me right (truth) before charity every time! Truth will help me save my soul....misplaced charity may help me lose it.
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. Cantarella is more interested in being right than in being charitable.
Give me right (truth) before charity every time! Truth will help me save my soul....misplaced charity may help me lose it.
Can you give a hypothetical example of what you are trying to say?
I thought I was clear but to say it another way: I'd want someone to tell me the truth even if it offended me or hurt my feelings rather than be charitable (sensible to my feelings) and withhold or water down the truth. That would be misplaced charity.
Giving someone the truth is charitable.
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. Cantarella is more interested in being right than in being charitable.
Give me right (truth) before charity every time! Truth will help me save my soul....misplaced charity may help me lose it.
So you're trying to tell me that a good Catholic can't give truth while also being charitable in their words and actions. That would be a false assertion.
You're also assuming that Cantarella is actually right. I said she's more concerned in being right (that doesn't necessarily equate with actually being so).
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For those of us who do not have access to sacramental confession, does an Act of Perfect Contrition suffice until we can get to confession?
You can never know if your contrition is perfect enough to forgive your sins so it is best to find a way to get to confession.
This is a lie we have all been taught growing up as "Catholics". The reality is perfect contrition is made easy by meditating on the Passion of Christ and upon how we have placed Him on the Cross by our sins. This method is a very worthy one to attain perfect contrition. One should then pray the act of Contrition with all of one's heart. The act of Contrition itself says ". . .I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, do penance and amend my life. Amen." To CONFESS MY SINS (as soon as possible).
There is an excellent sermon on Perfect Contrition which I may post if there is time and I remember in the next couple of days.
If the Act of Perfect Contrition forgives sins without a doubt, then why the need to go to confession as soon as possible?
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It important to understand and believe that nothing takes the place of the Sacrament, but it will suffice if you should die before you can get to Confession through no fault of your own. God always provide to those who are sincere in their Faith.
As does BOD.
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So you're trying to tell me that a good Catholic can't give truth while also being charitable in their words and actions. That would be a false assertion.
You're also assuming that Cantarella is actually right. I said she's more concerned in being right (that doesn't necessarily equate with actually being so).
To answer the first paragraph
Your are absolutely right I'm not trying to tell you that. You made a false assertion.
To answer the second paragraph
I understood the comment to mean she is more interested in the truth. I didn't assume anything.
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It important to understand and believe that nothing takes the place of the Sacrament, but it will suffice if you should die before you can get to Confession through no fault of your own. God always provide to those who are sincere in their Faith.
As does BOD.
No, Myrna, no matter how many times it is said by the modernists, nobody can be saved without the Sacraments instituted by Christ Lord and dispensed the Church. Promising salvation without the Sacraments is actually a sin against charity. Furthermore, Penance and Baptism are different.
One could potentially enter Heaven without Penance if not guilty of mortal sin, but one is unable to enter Heaven without receiving Baptism. The possibility of being washed from original sin through Baptism and not being guilty of mortal sin during a life time is there.
Baptism is the first remission of sin. It grants a seal or mark upon the soul that cannot be erased. Even if the person falls from grace by committing mortal sin. But to obtain forgiveness of sins committed after Baptism, one is not allowed to be baptized again, but must receive the Sacrament of Penance. Penance in this sense is an ongoing conversion and after Baptism, indispensably necessary for people who have committed sins, to enter heaven.
There is no real, tangible matter in Penance (as opposed to Baptism, for which is water). It is considered that the matter may be the acts of the penitent (contrition, confession and satisfaction). The form of the Sacrament of Penance consists in the words of absolution, given by a priest. If a person dies fallen from grace, this is, in state of mortal sin, cannot enter Heaven. No soul enters Heaven stained with sin. Their grave sins must be forgiven. Those who die without obtaining from God pardon for their sins will not be saved, but will be damned as they have made themselves unworthy of Heaven. It is Catholic dogma that the Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin.
Having said this, what is defined as an Act of Perfect Contrition is true sorrow for one's sins with the commitment of actually going to receive the Sacrament from a priest. Therefore, the obligation to confess remains and hopefully one does not die before receiving absolution since true sorrow may suffice for venial sins but most likely not so for mortal sin. Better not to take any unnecessary risks. After all, it is really one's soul which may forever perish.
From the Catechism:
Canon 1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51
Canon 1453 The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52
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So you're trying to tell me that a good Catholic can't give truth while also being charitable in their words and actions. That would be a false assertion.
You're also assuming that Cantarella is actually right. I said she's more concerned in being right (that doesn't necessarily equate with actually being so).
To answer the first paragraph
Your are absolutely right I'm not trying to tell you that. You made a false assertion.
To answer the second paragraph
I understood the comment to mean she is more interested in the truth. I didn't assume anything.
As Catholics we should tell the Truth in charity. This post was about a concern I had about the Act of Perfect Contrition. She took it as another opportunity to take a jab at sedevacantists. Nowhere did she tell the truth in charity. Period.
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Cantarella your words here again ... " Having said this, what is defined as an Act of Perfect Contrition is true sorrow for one's sins with the commitment of actually going to receive the Sacrament from a priest. Therefore, the obligation to confess remains and hopefully one does not die before receiving absolution since true sorrow may suffice for venial sins but most likely not so for mortal sin. Better not to take any unnecessary risks. After all, it is really one's soul which may forever perish."
The Catechism is clear, that a Perfect Act of Contrition does indeed forgive sins if Confession is not obtainable THROUGH NO FAULT of the sinner, AND IF THE PERSON DIES. If the person, lives however, of course they would have to go Confession or receive Baptism ASAP.
I realize you do not believe in BOD, but I do.
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Cantarella your words here again ... " Having said this, what is defined as an Act of Perfect Contrition is true sorrow for one's sins with the commitment of actually going to receive the Sacrament from a priest. Therefore, the obligation to confess remains and hopefully one does not die before receiving absolution since true sorrow may suffice for venial sins but most likely not so for mortal sin. Better not to take any unnecessary risks. After all, it is really one's soul which may forever perish."
The Catechism is clear, that a Perfect Act of Contrition does indeed forgive sins if Confession is not obtainable THROUGH NO FAULT of the sinner, AND IF THE PERSON DIES. If the person, lives however, of course they would have to go Confession or receive Baptism ASAP.
I realize you do not believe in BOD, but I do.
Nowhere does it appear in the catechism the modernist excuse of "through not fault of his own". The vast, vast majority of Catholics are actually able to find themselves a priest to hear their confessions before they die, if they really believe in it, and really wish it. Chances are it is a matter of will and of course, God's grace. If one must walk 1000 miles, so be it. If one must drive 20 hours, so be it. The saints used to do those kinds of actions and even more so; but nowadays we have become whiny wimps who complain for having to drive 2 hours to a weekly Mass! but receiving the Sacraments to nourish our spiritual life is worth any sacrifice. This is probably the kind of desire or votum the Council of Trent talks about when referring to some Sacraments (Baptism not included here). The "votum" that is conductive to action, not vague wish. Surely, if God sees the worthy disposition and a sincere desire, he will ensure that the soul is able to get to a priest before death.
Provide a clear example of a situation of "no fault of his own"...that would justify a Catholic to die without confession of a mortal sin... like if one is trapped on a desert island without a priest and then suddenly dies? perhaps. This does not sound like the situation described in the OP, although who knows?.
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Provide a clear example of a situation of "no fault of his own"...that would justify a Catholic to die without confession of a mortal sin... like if one is trapped on a desert island without a priest and then suddenly dies? perhaps. This does not sound like the situation described in the OP, although who knows?.
Unfortunately this tiype of situation is more common than we like to believe. How many people in nursing homes want a priest and are denied? People in hospital with a heart attack or stroke or cancer and the non believing family won't call a priest because they haven't been to church for so long they don't know how to behave if the priest came.
I know a man who stayed with his wife day and night for several days in the hospital to make sure no priest was admitted to his dying wife.
I hope God accepted her mental anguish as reparation.
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Provide a clear example of a situation of "no fault of his own"...that would justify a Catholic to die without confession of a mortal sin... like if one is trapped on a desert island without a priest and then suddenly dies? perhaps. This does not sound like the situation described in the OP, although who knows?.
Unfortunately this tiype of situation is more common than we like to believe. How many people in nursing homes want a priest and are denied? People in hospital with a heart attack or stroke or cancer and the non believing family won't call a priest because they haven't been to church for so long they don't know how to behave if the priest came.
I know a man who stayed with his wife day and night for several days in the hospital to make sure no priest was admitted to his dying wife.
I hope God accepted her mental anguish as reparation.
These (the elderly, the sick, the invalid) do sound as genuine examples of when the grace of Perfect Contrition could be received before the Sacrament; as stated in The Council of Trent:
"though it sometimes happens that this contrition is perfect and that it reconciles man with God before the actual reception of this sacrament, still the reconciliation is not to be ascribed to the contrition itself apart from the desire of the sacrament which it (contrition) includes".
But the general rule is that Catholics (every single one who can) are obliged to confess each mortal (and venial) sin and no one can enter Heaven with the stain of mortal sin in their souls.
"For those who after baptism have fallen into sin, the Sacrament of Penance is as necessary unto salvation as is baptism itself for those who have not yet been regenerated" (Council of Trent, Sess. XIV, c. 2).
The Perfect Contrition of which the Council speaks necessarily includes the(votum) to receive the sacrament and he is obliged to confess when he has the opportunity. But it does not follow that the penitent is at liberty to choose between two modes of obtaining forgiveness, one by an act of contrition independently of the sacrament, the other by confession and absolution. This view was actually condemned by Pope Sixtus IV in 1479:
Condemned: "mortal sins as regards their guilt and their punishment in the other world, are blotted out by contrition alone without any reference to the keys";
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From the condemned proposition:"mortal sins as regards their guilt and their punishment in the other world, are blotted out by contrition alone without any reference to the keys" (The keys refer to the actual sacrament of Penance).
Therefore it is clear that in the present order of salvation, not even heartfelt sorrow based on the highest motives, dispense with the power of the keys (the Sacrament of Penance). The Act of Contrition teaching is being heavily abused by the liberals nowadays who end up concluding that they can get away with it any time and that Catholic priests are no longer necessary for absolution.
There is no real reason why God's providence would not send a priest to a sincere penitent before death.
This brings to mind the following said by Fr. Feeney in Bread of Life:
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"May I pause here to declare that I think, both with regard to the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Penance, that the Liberal theologians, when it suits them, are making perfect acts of love of God altogether too easy for a fallen nature like ours.
I am not going to think it as difficult for a Catholic who has fallen into mortal sin but who, through his Faith, remembers his Holy Communions, his Blessed Mother, his past confessions, God’s rich forgivenesses in the sacraments, to make an act of perfect love, as for a catechumen, who has not had yet the benefit of one of God’s sanctifying sacraments. But the very fact that the Church requires every mortal sin committed to be confessed, whether one is perfectly sorry for it or not, shows the Church has a maternal suspicion of this perfect act of love of God obtaining forgiveness apart from the Sacrament of forgiveness instituted by Christ.
When I am dying, my dear children, if I tell you I am in the state of mortal sin (and I promise to do so if so it seems to me) do run for a priest, no matter how far you have to run! Do not just kneel down and teach me how to perfectly love without any sanctifying grace in my soul!
If the priest reaches me before I die, know that I have truly received the mercy of God. If the priest does not reach me, then wonder very much whether I have received it or not!"
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Having said this, what is defined as an Act of Perfect Contrition is true sorrow for one's sins with the commitment of actually going to receive the Sacrament from a priest. Therefore, the obligation to confess remains and hopefully one does not die before receiving absolution since true sorrow may suffice for venial sins but most likely not so for mortal sin. Better not to take any unnecessary risks. After all, it is really one's soul which may forever perish.
From the Catechism:
Canon 1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.
Cantarella contradicts here own quote within the very same posting (see bolded). This is the result of being infected with Feeneyism while accepting the Novus Ordo.
That quote is from the Novus Ordo Catechism, but the Catechism of the Council of Trent teaches the same on that point. And, the Church does say that someone who gained sanctifying grace through perfect contrition will be saved if a mortal accident prevents him from getting to Confession.
You screwed up your own attempt at adulterating the meaning of what Cantarella was saying - I fixed it for you by making the corrct sentence bold.
Will you ever hang it up?
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Having said this, what is defined as an Act of Perfect Contrition is true sorrow for one's sins with the commitment of actually going to receive the Sacrament from a priest. Therefore, the obligation to confess remains and hopefully one does not die before receiving absolution since true sorrow may suffice for venial sins but most likely not so for mortal sin. Better not to take any unnecessary risks. After all, it is really one's soul which may forever perish.
From the Catechism:
Canon 1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.
Cantarella contradicts here own quote within the very same posting (see bolded). This is the result of being infected with Feeneyism while accepting the Novus Ordo.
That quote is from the Novus Ordo Catechism, but the Catechism of the Council of Trent teaches the same on that point. And, the Church does say that someone who gained sanctifying grace through perfect contrition will be saved if a mortal accident prevents him from getting to Confession.
You screwed up your own attempt at adulterating the meaning of what Cantarella was saying - I fixed it for you by making the corrct sentence bold.
Will you ever hang it up?
It is still contradicted. She already made her statement in the context of "the commitment".
You don't even know what you are saying. Do you just post to read your own writing?
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Playing with pretty colors now, isn't he a big boy!
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Playing with pretty colors now, isn't he a big boy!
:roll-laugh1:
do you think he ever actually reads before he posts?
“When you pray that your sins may be forgiven, strengthen yourself always by faith, and trust in God’s mercy, Who is ever ready to forgive our sins after sincere prayer, and fear lest despair should fall on your heart — that despair which declares itself by deep despondency and forced tears. What are your sins in comparison to God’s mercy, whatever they be, if only you truly repent of them? But it often happens that when a man prays, he does not, in his heart, inwardly hope that his sins will be forgiven, counting them as though they were above God’s mercy. Therefore, he certainly will not obtain forgiveness, even should he shed fountains of involuntary tears; and with a sorrowful, straitened heart he will depart from the Gracious God: which is only what he deserves. ‘Believe that ye receive them,’ says the Lord, ‘and ye shall have them.’ Not to be sure of receiving what you ask God for, is a blasphemy against God.”
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:cheers:
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(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmY43w4RsNbpDTuCOoLiyqcLkDgupJCG6bdOuWK6ZbI_8xnnzyvg)
:popcorn:
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Playing with pretty colors now, isn't he a big boy!
:roll-laugh1:
do you think he ever actually reads before he posts?
I don't know, I think he at least reads who posted so he knows who he is aiming at. Beyond that, I'm still trying to convince myself that he is a he and not a she.
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(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmY43w4RsNbpDTuCOoLiyqcLkDgupJCG6bdOuWK6ZbI_8xnnzyvg)
:popcorn:
LOL
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"with the commitment of actually going to receive the Sacrament from a priest. Therefore, the obligation to confess remains and hopefully one does not die before receiving absolution since true sorrow may suffice for venial sins but most likely not so for mortal sin."
"it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible."
Why do you go out of your way to mess up the entire thread with your bewildered replies?
You make it your mission to take everything out of context - - - to avoid doing that, put the below snip in whatever color you think it should be in - but put it where it belongs in your above pretty color quote:
Therefore, the obligation to confess remains
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When the Church baptizes a convert from Protestantism, she uses a conditional formula, which means that in the time span of some five centuries, she still has not decided whether the Apostolic succession ceased in those heretical sects and the sacraments administrated in them are valid or not.
While I agree with your main point, it should be mentioned that the baptizer does not have to be a priest, or even a Christian to baptize validly. So this really has nothing to do with Apostolic Succession.
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If the Act of Perfect Contrition forgives sins without a doubt, then why the need to go to confession as soon as possible?
Because a key part of the Act of Contrition is the resolve to go to Confession. If you don't resolve to confess your sins as soon as possible, you haven't made a perfect Act of Contrition.
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Have you read the booklet by Fr. Lehmkuhl, dear 2Vermont? I read it a few years ago, and can't recall anything wrong in it. It suggests many practical ways in which, with the help of prayer and God's grace, we can achieve perfect contrition for all our past sins, not only as one individual act, but have a deep and lasting sorrow of heart for having offended God, who is infinitely worthy of love, thus strengthening ourselves against future falls into sin.
Some other posters have already mentioned some reasons - attrition or imperfect contrition suffices in the confessional, whereas contrition is necessary outside it. And attrition (supernatural sorrow of heart arising from fear of hell or consideration of the loss of heaven) is much easier than contrition (supernatural sorrow of heart arising from having offended God and purely for having grieved His Infinite Goodness). Contrition, however, is not unattainable provided only we meditate often on the infinite benevolence of God, the immeasurable pain it cost Jesus on the Cross to bear our sins and suffer humiliation for our sake, the infinite love with which He nonetheless suffered, the countless labors of His holy life right from His birth in a poor manger, the insults and blasphemies He patiently bore on the Cross while His hands and feet were pierced etc. We can also meditate on the pains Mary endured with Him, the great pangs of sorrow that pierced the Blessed Mother's Immaculate Heart, that She suffered more than all martyrs have suffered, at the thought and sight of what our sins were doing to Her Son, while She nonetheless offered Him out of love for us to God etc. These thoughts will drive us to true love of God and obtain contrition for our sins.
There can be no true contrition or perfect love of God unless there is included in it the desire to fulfill all of God's commandments, which includes going to confession as soon as that is reasonably possible to us, given the circuмstances. In contrition, we unite our will to God's by love, and desire to do all that He desires. Consequently, someone who excludes this desire or dismisses this obligation can never hope to have true contrition.
Finally, there are some other special graces that are reserved to the actual sacrament, like deeper knowledge and light to discover our past sins, a more abundant grace that provides help and strength for avoiding sin in the future, and even a greater remission of the temporal punishment for our sins, which would otherwise have to be undergone in purgatory. And that brings us to a final reason to avail oneself of confession whenever it becomes possible to us even if we are perfectly contrite, which is this - contrition cannot usually be so great (without much effort and practice, and that is why it is very good in any case to cultivate and make a habit of contrition, as Fr. Lehmkuhl teaches below) as to obtain for us the remission of the entire debt of temporal punishment owed for our sins, which debt we have to pay in purgatory, if it is not remitted in this life. May God help and bless you in this time when the Sacraments are hard for you to come by.
WHAT EFFECTS DOES PERFECT CONTRITION PRODUCE?
Some truly admirable effects! For the sinner, thanks to perfect contrition, he immediately receives forgiveness for each of his faults even before making his confession. Nevertheless, he must make a resolution to confess himself at an opportune time; of course, this resolution is included in perfect contrition. Every time he makes an act of perfect contrition, the pains of hell are immediately remitted, he recovers all his past merits, and he turns from being an enemy of God to being His son by adoption and co-heir to heaven.
For the just man, perfect contrition enlarges and strengthens the state of grace. It erases the venial sins he has detested, and increases in him the true and sound love of God. Here are the marvelous effects of divine mercy in the soul of the Christian owing to perfect contrition.
Anyway, a very Merry Christmas to you, 2Vermont, and to all.
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Have you read the booklet by Fr. Lehmkuhl, dear 2Vermont? I read it a few years ago, and can't recall anything wrong in it.
The booklet is really just a 1905 essay by a priest, J De Driesch, who wrote it based on a personal religious experience he had. It was the foreward that was by Lehmkuhl. It managed to get an imprimatur, but I know at least by 1930 it no longer did. And then regained it, it appears in 1959 after Pius XII died.
In any event, the essay contradicts the Catechism of the Council of Trent, and that should mean the most to anyone.
It is your assertion that it contradicts the Catechism. To support it, please first of all produce the source that shows the Imprimatur was retracted or qualified in any sense. Also, Trent does not teach contrition is impossible to obtain, nor does the booklet say it is easy to obtain it. Both say there must be a proportion between the sins committed and the intensity of contrition required, "though even without tears its intensity should have some proportion to the sin or sins we have committed." St. Alphonsus and St. Francis De Sales have written similar works on contrition, I may post some excerpts later.
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Honestly, 2Vermont, you need to widen your perspective on acceptable options for Confession. I find it very hard to believe that there isn't a Novus Ordo priest who was ordained before about 1968 somewhere near you. There are literally several dozen such priests floating around the vicinity of Cleveland, OH.
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....... St. Alphonsus and St. Francis De Sales have written similar works on contrition, I may post some excerpts later.
I would be very grateful if you did, dear Nishant.
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Honestly, 2Vermont, you need to widen your perspective on acceptable options for Confession. I find it very hard to believe that there isn't a Novus Ordo priest who was ordained before about 1968 somewhere near you. There are literally several dozen such priests floating around the vicinity of Cleveland, OH.
Well, that's Cleveland. This is not. I'm telling you (whether you wish to believe it or not) that if there are any NO priests ordained pre-1968, then they have long retired/are not active/are dead.
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Honestly, 2Vermont, you need to widen your perspective on acceptable options for Confession. I find it very hard to believe that there isn't a Novus Ordo priest who was ordained before about 1968 somewhere near you. There are literally several dozen such priests floating around the vicinity of Cleveland, OH.
Well, that's Cleveland. This is not. I'm telling you (whether you wish to believe it or not) that if there are any NO priests ordained pre-1968, then they have long retired/are not active/are dead.
Sure, many have retired, but you can often find them in the retirement homes, and many of them actually in Cleveland live in private residences. I wonder if your diocese has a "Directory of Clergy" somewhere. Cleveland has a great one that includes date of ordination and current residence.
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i kind of think of nado like hobbes here :laugh2:
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/know-nothing_hobbes_6207.jpg)
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CuWhgyGWkgE/hqdefault.jpg)
and we know who that is :jester:
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Why would anyone in his right mind approach it as if it were anything but the most difficult and doubtful possibility in the whole world?
I'm not going to "phone it in" on anything this dire and dreadful of consequences.
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i kind of think of nado like hobbes
Does this mean that you reject what the Catechism of the Council of Trent says about it being difficult?
If you do, the Hobbes is on you.
What about the opinion of St. Charles Borromeo, mentioned in an earlier post (in the same book):
"It will not be out of place to call to mind here what St. Charles Borromeo taught his penitents when they went to Confession. 'Do you wish,' he used to say, 'to know an easy way of exciting yourselves to true sorrow for your sins? Make three little visits-the first above, the second below, the third in the middle. Your visit up above will show you Paradise, which you have renounced for some empty pleasure, for some sinful thought, or word or act. The displeasure that will arise in your heart at the thought of this loss will be good attrition, or imperfect contrition, and in Confession will suffice to wash away your sins.
'Your visit below will show you that frightful place in which you would be now if God had exercised His justice- that place where you would for ever suffer the torment of fire, far from your true home, which is Heaven. The sorrow arising from this consideration is also excellent, and sufficient in Confession.
'Your third visit will show you Christ crucified and dying for you on Calvary amid pains and insults of every description. The knowledge that the Crucified One is Infinite Goodness Itself, your greatest Benefactor, Whom, instead of loving, you have insulted and crucified, will awaken in your heart sentiments of love and sorrow that will wipe away your sins even before you enter the confessional.'
Dear reader, remember these three visits of St. Charles, not only when you go to Confession, but each time you wish to excite yourself to Perfect Contrition."
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i said getting baptised and making your confession is easy ......nice try
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TeGVTGQfDsA/UddRV6I2S9I/AAAAAAAAFtg/8GYecdCcsjw/s500/Stephen+King+Reading+to+write.jpg)
try answering any of the questions raised
(http://cdn.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/its_not_rocket_science_sticker-p217626321983365495tr4z_400.jpg)