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Offline Cantarella

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2019, 10:31:28 AM »
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  • Fr. Fenney:

    Quote
    Salvation in the Old Testament was from God the Father, promising the Blood of His Divine Son. Salvation in the New Testament is from God the Son, promising His water and the Holy Ghost.

    The Blood that flowed from the side of Jesus when He died on the Cross was a testimony to us of what God the Father had given. God the Father did not spare His only Divine Son.

    The Water that flowed from the side of Christ, when He was crucified on the Cross, was a testimony of the Water of Baptism, which He would give, in union with the Holy Ghost, to save the world. “As the Father hath sent me,” Christ said to His Apostles, “I also send you.” (John 20:21.)

    Salvation in the New Testament is the complete performance of the Blessed Trinity — is of the Father, and the Son He sent, and of the Holy Ghost, sent by the Son. “But I tell you the truth,” Our Lord said, “it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” (John 16:7.)

    The waters of Baptism were purchased by the Blood of Jesus. Those who teach whatever Jesus commanded His Apostles to teach, now teach with raging tongues of fire. Baptism is the water of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Who was sent by the First Person, to take water and unite it to the power of the Third.

    The Blessed Trinity is in complete covenant with the world once Baptism has been given us by Jesus. When Jesus was baptized by John in the River Jordan, the Father’s voice was heard, saying, “This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased.” And the Spirit of God — the Holy Spirit — was seen, descending in the form of a dove.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #46 on: February 09, 2019, 03:52:22 PM »
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  • What are St Robert's grounds for such a statement.

    here's the fixed link: De Sacramento Baptismi p. 166, first full ¶:
    Quote from: St. Robert Bellarmine
    Some [who argue martyrdom alone cannot justify] respond that the Innocents were circumcised, hence justified before martyrdom. But this is not so. For it is uncertain whether they were all circumcised; nay, it is very probable and almost certain not all were circumcised. For Herod killed all the children who were in Bethlehem and its environs; he did not command only the children of Jews but utterly all be killed: and perhaps not a few Gentiles were among them. Moreover, he ordered that all infants two years and younger be killed, hence even those who were not yet 8 days old, who alone can be circumcised. Still, it is not de fide that circumcision justifies, and yet the Church certainly believes that absolutely all those infants are saved. Further, the Church not only believes the Innocents are saved but even honors them as martyrs; therefore, suffering for Christ conveys something to them ex opere operato. Nor is Scotus's argument that this is a privilege of children count: for it is asserted without any grounds. For if martyrdom profits infants ex opere operato, why not adults? Certainly the martyrdom of adults is no less powerful and efficacious than of infants; rather, it is more powerful, more noble, and more efficacious.

    If they weren't circumcised then they weren't Jewish, and so would not have been martyred.
    Circumcision nor water baptism is required for martyrdom.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #47 on: February 09, 2019, 03:52:33 PM »
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  • Most Holy Innocents would have been circumcised anyway, just like the martyrs have most likely been water baptized.
    St. Emerentiana was a young martyred catechumen (cf. Pohle-Preuss v. 1 p. 251).
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #48 on: February 09, 2019, 04:03:02 PM »
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  • Fr. Fenney:
    Quote
    Salvation in the Old Testament was from God the Father, promising the Blood of His Divine Son. Salvation in the New Testament is from God the Son, promising His water and the Holy Ghost.
    Quote
    Salvation in the New Testament is the complete performance of the Blessed Trinity
    What's his support of these assertions?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #49 on: February 09, 2019, 04:13:29 PM »
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  • St. Emerentiana was a young martyred catechumen (cf. Pohle-Preuss v. 1 p. 251).

    Red herring.  She was obviously put to death on account of being Christian.  What's at issue is whether unborn babies who are killed largely indiscriminately, for reasons of personal selfishness or financial gain, could qualify as martyrs.  I would imagine that there's maybe one case out of a million where the abortion doctor thinks, "Aha, I want to kill this baby because he's otherwise grow up to be a Christian."  And exactly ZERO mothers subject their children to abortion because they don't want their child to become Christian ... for all they'd have to do is to raise them to think otherwise and to reject Christianity.  So on all fronts applying BoB to aborted babies is an epic fail, an exercise in emotion-based pseudo-theology ... from where all anti-EENS thinking originates.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #50 on: February 09, 2019, 04:15:29 PM »
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  • Under the New Law, the martyrs were likely. Water Baptized.   :cowboy:

    Correct.  During times of persecutions, the catechumens received emergency Baptism, but, apart from early reception of the Sacrament, continued on in the status of catechumen, continuing to learn and being prepared for the fullness of the Church's Sacramental life.  So references in Church history to martyred catechumens are inconclusive and moot.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #51 on: February 09, 2019, 04:18:52 PM »
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  • Red herring.
    I was refuting the assertion that water baptism or circumcision is necessary for martyrdom.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #52 on: February 09, 2019, 04:21:51 PM »
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  • Did the killing of the Holy Innocents do something for their justification?  Bellarmine thinks so.  Others disagree.  Bellarmine has to posit an ex opere operato action of martyrdom.  But that's a real problem.  So you have an adult who's a formal heretic and explicitly rejects the Catholic Church, but then is martyred for being a Christian.  with the ex opere operato theory of Bellarmine, and the quasi-ex-opere-operato expression of St. Alphonsus, that heretic would be justified and saved.  But the Church has taught otherwise dogmatically, that BoD does not apply to those who lack the Catholic faith.  And infants lack the Catholic faith, since it has not been infused by the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Nevertheless, here's the key.  In no way could this action have constituted a substitute for Baptism for the Holy Innocents, since Baptism as a sacrament did not yet exist.  It's the dogmatic teaching of Trent that there can be NO justification since the promulgation of the Gospel WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  Even if one posits the existence of BoD and BoB, even in those cases the Sacrament of Baptism remains the instrumental cause of justification.  Otherwise, you commit the heresy of claiming that people can be justified without Baptism.  But in the case of the Holy Innocents, the Sacrament could not have been the instrumental cause of justification, since it did not exist.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #53 on: February 09, 2019, 04:27:37 PM »
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  • I was refuting the assertion that water baptism or circumcision is necessary for martyrdom.

    Church has dogmatically taught that the Catholic faith is necessary for martyrdom.  Period.  At least with a martyred catechumen (even if you believed they were unbaptized catechumens), they obviously have professed the Catholic faith already.  So how exactly did these infants receive the Catholic faith?  Answer: they couldn't, unless you claim that BoB is now an 8th Sacrament, and somehow results in the infusion of supernatural faith.  That is not taught by the Church.  That's why the Church teaches that there is no remedy for children to be saved apart from the Sacrament of Baptism.  Even if something ex opere operato happened to the Holy Innocents, the argument from them towards modern BoB for infants falls flat because of the requirement for supernatural faith for salvation.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #54 on: February 09, 2019, 05:35:36 PM »
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  • Did the killing of the Holy Innocents do something for their justification?  Bellarmine thinks so.  Others disagree.  Bellarmine has to posit an ex opere operato action of martyrdom.  But that's a real problem.  So you have an adult who's a formal heretic and explicitly rejects the Catholic Church, but then is martyred for being a Christian.  with the ex opere operato theory of Bellarmine, and the quasi-ex-opere-operato expression of St. Alphonsus, that heretic would be justified and saved.
    No, because heresy places an obstacle to the grace (ibid., end of 3rd full ¶)
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #55 on: February 09, 2019, 06:34:55 PM »
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  • No, because heresy places an obstacle to the grace (ibid., end of 3rd full ¶)

    Why?  Because there's no supernatural faith in a heretic.  Explain how BoB for infants infuses the supernatural faith that's lacking.


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #56 on: February 09, 2019, 09:48:16 PM »
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  • Explain how BoB for infants infuses the supernatural faith that's lacking.
    However it was done for the Holy Innocents.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #57 on: February 10, 2019, 09:11:51 AM »
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  • This "aborted babies and baptism of blood" notion is a perfect example of "mission creep."   What started out as theological speculation with a very narrow set of parameters (a catechumen who dies for explicit faith in Christ and His Church) ends up undermining the entire edifice of Catholic doctrine.   Truth isn't necessary, the sacraments aren't necessary, the moral law isn't necessary, revelation isn't necessary, the true religion isn't necessary.  Not even "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" is necessary.  None of it is necessary.  

    We're supposed to be resisting error.  Why even bother?  Clearly, truth doesn't matter.  People can get to heaven without it.

    Add to that the fact that, if aborted babies get "baptism of blood" and go straight to heaven, then abortion loses it's horror.  

    The early Catholics did not resist persecution and martyrdom.  They embraced it.  If aborted babies go to heaven, then why are we resisting their "martyrdom"?  It seems to me the abortionist is doing them a favor, sending them straight to heaven.
    Nonsensical argument. I agree that abortion isn't martyrdom, but your argument here(that we should let martyrdom continue because the martyrs are saved) just doesn't stand. Just because we are to embrace martyrdom rather than denounce the faith, does NOT mean we are to let our fellow Catholics be martyred. If Catholics were being into the Colosseum to be eaten by Lions if they did not renounce, they would be saved. So would we just let the practice continue and let our brothers and sister in Christ be massacred? Obviously not. Many wars were fought for the explicit purpose of saving people from martyrdom. To argue that if the unborn babies were martyred and saved, that we should not stop abortion, is the same as arguing that if Catholic pilgrims being murdered in the Holy Land were saved that the Crusaders shouldn't have fought to secure them safe passage. The Crusaders didn't decide that pilgrims being slaughtered lost its horror because those pilgrims went to Heaven, they didn't decide to just sit back and leave it happen. They still recognised it as a horrible crime demanding vengeance. So even if abortion was martyrdom(which I don't believe it is), we would still fight just as hard to stop it. 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #58 on: February 10, 2019, 09:12:12 AM »
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  • However it was done for the Holy Innocents.
    Old Covenant. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #59 on: February 10, 2019, 09:28:37 AM »
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  • Old Covenant.
    Y'all are wasting your time. 
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

     

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