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Author Topic: Aborted babies & baptism of blood  (Read 4451 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 05:34:11 AM »
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    • Dogma - “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…” -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442

    "Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 09:40:15 AM »
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    • Dogmatically speaking, we can conclude that pope Francis and Bp Bernard Fellay are teaching heresies and outside the One, Holy, Apostolic Church.

    As Father Hesse would say, they are part of the schismatic, conciliar church.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #17 on: February 08, 2019, 10:08:29 AM »
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    • This "aborted babies and baptism of blood" notion is a perfect example of "mission creep."   What started out as theological speculation with a very narrow set of parameters (a catechumen who dies for explicit faith in Christ and His Church) ends up undermining the entire edifice of Catholic doctrine.   Truth isn't necessary, the sacraments aren't necessary, the moral law isn't necessary, revelation isn't necessary, the true religion isn't necessary.  Not even "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" is necessary.  None of it is necessary.  

    We're supposed to be resisting error.  Why even bother?  Clearly, truth doesn't matter.  People can get to heaven without it.

    Add to that the fact that, if aborted babies get "baptism of blood" and go straight to heaven, then abortion loses it's horror.  

    The early Catholics did not resist persecution and martyrdom.  They embraced it.  If aborted babies go to heaven, then why are we resisting their "martyrdom"?  It seems to me the abortionist is doing them a favor, sending them straight to heaven.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #18 on: February 08, 2019, 10:52:25 AM »
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    • Ecuмenical Council of Vienne re-affirming there is only ONE Baptism the Church actually knows of:

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    All are faithfully to profess that there is one baptism which regenerates all those baptized in Christ, just as there is one God and one faith’. We believe that when baptism is administered in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit, it is a perfect means of salvation for both adults and children.

    No mention of Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood in any infallible teaching of the Church.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #19 on: February 08, 2019, 10:55:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on February 08, 2019, 09:40:15 AM
    Dogmatically speaking, we can conclude that pope Francis and Bp Bernard Fellay are teaching heresies and outside the One, Holy, Apostolic Church.

    As Father Hesse would say, they are part of the schismatic, conciliar church.

    Funny thing is that Bp. Fellay says that 5% of Vatican II is error; but he sides with this 5%.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #20 on: February 08, 2019, 12:55:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: ihsv on February 08, 2019, 10:08:29 AM
    This "aborted babies and baptism of blood" notion is a perfect example of "mission creep."   What started out as theological speculation with a very narrow set of parameters (a catechumen who dies for explicit faith in Christ and His Church) ends up undermining the entire edifice of Catholic doctrine.   Truth isn't necessary, the sacraments aren't necessary, the moral law isn't necessary, revelation isn't necessary, the true religion isn't necessary.  Not even "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" is necessary.  None of it is necessary.  

    We're supposed to be resisting error.  Why even bother?  Clearly, truth doesn't matter.  People can get to heaven without it.

    Add to that the fact that, if aborted babies get "baptism of blood" and go straight to heaven, then abortion loses it's horror.  

    The early Catholics did not resist persecution and martyrdom.  They embraced it.  If aborted babies go to heaven, then why are we resisting their "martyrdom"?  It seems to me the abortionist is doing them a favor, sending them straight to heaven.
    "Mission creep"... beautiful!
    200 years ago, from the ѕуηαgσgυєs, the devil and his minions could foresee it happening.
    And in the early 1940s, Father Feeney figured it out.  
    He understood that Catholics had become weak in the Faith by the wavering and uncertainty of salvation outside the Church.
    And now we have the trad Pope (Fellay) opening the Gates of Heaven to all those who "wish" it could be  :facepalm:
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #21 on: February 08, 2019, 01:51:47 PM »
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    • Yes, the lack of any act of the will on the part of infants is key.

    To say that BoB can apply to infants turns the action of BoB into ex opere operato ... i.e. essentially into a Sacrament.

    BoB has an interesting history.  St. Cyprian, perhaps the originator of the notion, spoke of BoB as a SACRAMENT.  Modern theologians cite this as an error.

    But was it really?

    Elsewhere, St. Cyprian says that BoB martyrs are "washed" in their own blood while angels pronounce the words.

    So he saw it as an alterate mode of receiving the Sacrament, with blood supplying for water as the matter, while angels supplied the missing form.  He did not see this as an exception to the dogma that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #22 on: February 08, 2019, 02:03:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: ihsv on February 07, 2019, 11:10:21 PM
    No he couldn't, because the child is not a Christian.
    Nor were the Holy Innocents before martyrdom. Some were not even circuмcised (cf. St. Robert Bellarmine De Sacramento Baptismi p. 166, first full ¶); thus, they were justified solely by martyrdom.
    Quote from: ihsv on February 07, 2019, 11:10:21 PM
    Furthermore, the child is incapable of having a rational thought, and is in capable of forming any intention whatsoever, explicit or implicit.
    One needn't be of the age of reason to be martyred. See Pope Benedict XIV's bull Beatus Andreas for several examples of young martyrs.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #23 on: February 08, 2019, 02:08:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: ihsv on February 08, 2019, 10:08:29 AM
    Add to that the fact that, if aborted babies get "baptism of blood" and go straight to heaven, then abortion loses it's horror.
    It's not the gravest sin there is. Atheism/unbelief, for example, is much more serious.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #24 on: February 08, 2019, 02:08:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 08, 2019, 01:51:47 PM
    Yes, the lack of any act of the will on the part of infants is key.
    How do you explain the Holy Innocents, then?
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #25 on: February 08, 2019, 02:10:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 08, 2019, 05:34:11 AM
    Dogma - “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…” -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442

    ["Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415
    No one here denies these dogmas, but what do they have to do with this thread's question of whether an unborn baby can be martyred?
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #26 on: February 08, 2019, 02:15:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on February 08, 2019, 12:55:39 PM
    And in the early 1940s, Father Feeney figured it out.
    There are Feeneyites among "The Resistance" and this forum?
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    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #27 on: February 08, 2019, 02:35:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 08, 2019, 02:03:43 PM
    Nor were the Holy Innocents before martyrdom. Some were not even circuмcised (cf. St. Robert Bellarmine De Sacramento Baptismi p. 166, first full ¶); thus, they were justified solely by martyrdom.

    The Holy Innocents died under the Old Law, and were not subject to the new dispensation of baptism.  Under no circuмstances is their situation even remotely similar to those of aborted babies who die under the New Law.  The obligation to receive the sacrament of baptism didn't come into effect until Pentecost Sunday, 33 AD.

    Quote from: Geremia on February 08, 2019, 02:03:43 PM
    One needn't be of the age of reason to be martyred. See Pope Benedict XIV's bull Beatus Andreas for several examples of young martyrs.

    No one said you had to be the age of reason to be martyred.  We're not discussing martyrs here.  We're discussing babies who are murdered in the womb.
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    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #28 on: February 08, 2019, 02:37:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 08, 2019, 02:08:15 PM
    It's not the gravest sin there is. Atheism/unbelief, for example, is much more serious.

    Your view causes abortion to be a joyful thing.  Eternal bliss in heaven.

    Tell me, does the baby in question believe?
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    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #29 on: February 08, 2019, 02:37:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 08, 2019, 02:08:46 PM
    How do you explain the Holy Innocents, then?

    See my previous response.
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