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Offline Geremia

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Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« on: February 05, 2019, 05:45:33 PM »
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  • Fr. Francis O’Connell, C.Ss.R., Outlines of Moral Theology (1953), as quoted on the last page of Conlon's Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire:
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    Baptism of Desire ... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition... These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood & Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament... Even an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith...
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 05:48:39 PM »
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  • #1) very few aborted babies are killed due to someone being actuated from contempt for the faith

    #2) So what?  This guy makes it up; it's a gratuitous statement rooted in wishful thinking.  Where's the theological proof for it?


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 01:19:59 AM »
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    Baptism of Desire ... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition...

    I have heard this argument as the mechanism for BOD, but it doesn't quite match with what the Saints have said about "perfect contrition".

    In the attached lecture by St. Alphonsus De' Ligouri, he explains perfect contrition, but only in the context of it being used by Baptized Catholics when they have no access to the priestly Absolution from Confession.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 11:06:18 AM »
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  • Aborted babies do not die as martyrs for Christ and His Church. The situation is completely different and you know it. This is just another silly attempt to reduce Catholic dogma to a meaningless formula so at the end, everyone can just believe what they want.

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    “Anyone who would say that even infants who pass from this life without participation in the Sacrament of Baptism shall be made alive in Christ goes counter to the preaching of the Apostle and condemns the whole Church, because it is believed without doubt that there is no other way at all in which they can be made alive in Christ’ (St. Augustine, Epistle to Jerome , Journel: 166).

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #4 on: February 07, 2019, 02:22:47 PM »
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  • Where's the theological proof for it?

    Pope Benedict XIV Doctrina de servorum Dei beatificatione et beatorum canonizatione lib. 3 cap. 15 "De requisitis in martyre necessariis ante martyrium":
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    Martyrium dicitur baptismus sanguinis Marc. 10. In adultis est actus fortitudinis, et caritatis : quoad infantes, sufficit occisos fuisse ex odio in Christum, ut martyrium suppleat vices baptismi aquæ, deleatque ex opere operato peccatum originale quoad culpam, et poenam, ut docet S. Thomas (2, 2, qu. 124, art. 1 ad 1)

    What constitutes killing out of hatred of Christ (ex odio in Christum) is not as restrictive as some may think. As Billot, S.J. (De ecclesiæ sacramentis t. 1 p. 242) mentions, a "formal hatred of Christ and His religion" is not necessary, as some emperors who martyred did so only out of motives of ignorance of Christianity, upholding civil law, or public opinion; however, they did target Christians specifically.

    Cdl. Cajetan, O.P., in his commentary on III q. 68 a. 11 ("Whether a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb?") is even more explicit, saying that even in utero infants can be martyrs like the Holy Innocents:
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    Si enim propter Christum infans in utero occideretur, martyr esset, non minus quam Innocentes.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #5 on: February 07, 2019, 02:43:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    Where's the theological proof for it?

    Pope Benedict XIV Doctrina de servorum Dei beatificatione et beatorum canonizatione lib. 3 cap. 15 "De requisitis in martyre necessariis ante martyrium":
    What constitutes killing out of hatred of Christ (ex odio in Christum) is not as restrictive as some may think. As Billot, S.J. (De ecclesiæ sacramentis t. 1 p. 242) mentions, a "formal hatred of Christ and His religion" is not necessary, as some emperors who martyred did so only out of motives of ignorance of Christianity, upholding civil law, or public opinion; however, they did target Christians specifically.

    Cdl. Cajetan, O.P., in his commentary on III q. 68 a. 11 ("Whether a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb?") is even more explicit, saying that even in utero infants can be martyrs like the Holy Innocents:
    Actually, we know there is only theological proof against it, because the murder of the innocent is one of the sins that cries to heaven for vengeance, it's perpetration via abortion comes straight from hell. The devil may not get those souls, but neither does God - and to Satan, that is all that matters.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #6 on: February 07, 2019, 06:17:02 PM »
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  • Pope Benedict XIV Doctrina de servorum Dei beatificatione et beatorum canonizatione lib. 3 cap. 15 "De requisitis in martyre necessariis ante martyrium":
    What constitutes killing out of hatred of Christ (ex odio in Christum) is not as restrictive as some may think. As Billot, S.J. (De ecclesiæ sacramentis t. 1 p. 242) mentions, a "formal hatred of Christ and His religion" is not necessary, as some emperors who martyred did so only out of motives of ignorance of Christianity, upholding civil law, or public opinion; however, they did target Christians specifically.


    The argument is not that only adults (and not babies) can be martyrs. It is that abortions do not constitute the right circumstance for martyrdom.

    Do you really think that women are killing their babies in the womb on any religious ground whatsoever? Look carefully at the motive. Women have abortions simply to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy; not because of any hatred of Christ and His religion, "odio in Christum", either formal or implicit. Abortions do not constitute religious persecution in any way. A woman is not killing her unborn because he is a Christian. 
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #7 on: February 07, 2019, 06:57:41 PM »
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  • Cdl. Cajetan, O.P., in his commentary on III q. 68 a. 11 ("Whether a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb?") is even more explicit, saying that even in utero infants can be martyrs like the Holy Innocents:

    The key here is the motive for the killing.  Do they put the in utero baby to death for the sake of Christ?

    From Cajetan's commentary:

    Quote
    Ex eo quod status ille est capax baptismi sanguinis.

    Si enim propter Christum infants in utero occideretur, martyr esset, non minus quam innocentes

    Rationabile siquidem videtur parentum fidem posse optando percudere ad id ad quod corporalis passio infantem ducit

    It seems to me that this would allow for a case of a pregnant Christian woman actually dying as a martyr for Christ and His Church (let's say all her family is being killed for being Catholic and she is pregnant). Her unborn child then would count as a martyr, according to Cajetan's commentary. This is far far from being the case of the millions of infants being killed daily in Planned Parenthood by their mothers who have an abortion just so they can get rid of the inconvenience of their pregnancies. These babies are not dying for the sake of Christ; but for the irresponsibility of their mothers. 
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #8 on: February 07, 2019, 07:49:13 PM »
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  • The key here is the motive for the killing.  Do they put the in utero baby to death for the sake of Christ?

    From Cajetan's commentary:

    It seems to me that this would allow for a case of a pregnant Christian woman actually dying as a martyr for Christ and His Church (let's say all her family is being killed for being Catholic and she is pregnant). Her unborn child then would count as a martyr, according to Cajetan's commentary. This is far far from being the case of the millions of infants being killed daily in Planned Parenthood by their mothers who have an abortion just so they can get rid of the inconvenience of their pregnancies. These babies are not dying for the sake of Christ; but for the irresponsibility of their mothers.
    This is exactly what I was thinking.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #9 on: February 07, 2019, 10:11:08 PM »
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  • A woman is not killing her unborn because he is a Christian.
    But an abortionist could.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #10 on: February 07, 2019, 10:13:14 PM »
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  • These babies are not dying for the sake of Christ; but for the irresponsibility of their mothers.
    What if the abortionist intends to kill Christians' children?
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 10:17:35 PM »
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  • In the attached lecture by St. Alphonsus De' Ligouri, he explains perfect contrition, but only in the context of it being used by Baptized Catholics when they have no access to the priestly Absolution from Confession.
    Other good resources on the perfect contrition question: those linked in "Perfect Contrition: The Key to Heaven, especially for Our Times," esp. the interview with Fr. Bernard Uttley
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    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 11:09:07 PM »
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  • What if the abortionist intends to kill Christians' children?

    Well, for starters, it's not sufficient for martyrdom that the guy who shoots you hates Catholics.  YOU have to be WILLING to die for Christ.  A Catholic who is taken to the Colosseum kicking and screaming is not going willingly, and so it cannot be construed as an act of love.  He is not "laying his life down" for the beloved, but rather is having it taken from him unwillingly.  This is not martyrdom.

    The woman who goes to the abortionist is in a state of automatic excommunication and has been cut off from the communion of the faithful.  She is complicit.  The abortionist is complicit.  

    WHERE is the perfect contrition, the perfect act of charity, the willingness to suffer for Christ, the implicit/explicit faith, intention to receive baptism, etc., etc., etc., coming from?  

    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 11:10:21 PM »
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  • But an abortionist could.

    No he couldn't, because the child is not a Christian.  Furthermore, the child is incapable of having a rational thought, and is in capable of forming any intention whatsoever, explicit or implicit.  
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 11:25:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: The Roman Catechism
    The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

     

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