Author Topic: A question on the origin of the soul? (Read 3281 times)

Clovis · « **on:** February 28, 2010, 06:47:52 AM »

I got out a book from the Novus Ordo Central Catholic Libarary here which is good in that it has a lot of old books called "A manual of the history of Dogmas Volume II" by a Rev Bernard J. Otten S.J. (it was published in 1918) in which states the opinion that souls are formed from the substance of the parents in a similar manner to the way bodies are as opposed to being seperately created and than infused by God into the body is a heretical opinion condemned by the Church. This greatly surprised me as it has been the opinion I have always held since I first learned that the pre-existence of souls was a heresy (St Augustine, Tertullian and I believe also St Gregory of Nyssa aswell as others who I cant think of off hand also believed this). I had read before that this matter hadnt been decided by the Church.

Do you have any views and/or knowledge in this regard?

Clovis · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2010, 06:58:39 AM »

For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedech met him.

Hebrews 7:10 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

trad123 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:15:20 AM »

Quote from: Clovis

...in which states the opinion that souls are formed from the substance of the parents in a similar manner to the way bodies are as opposed to being seperately created and than infused by God into the body is a heretical opinion condemned by the Church.

Hopefully this is the right passage

Tertullian:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.xi.xxvii.html

Quote

...I cannot help asking, whether we do not, in that very heat of extreme gratification when the generative fluid is ejected, feel that somewhat of our soul has gone from us? And do we not experience a faintness and prostration along with a dimness of sight? This, then, must be the soul-producing seed, which arises at once from the out-drip of the soul, just as that fluid is the body-producing seed which proceeds from the drainage of the flesh.

St. Thomas Aquinas:

Article 2. Whether the intellectual soul is produced from the semen?

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1118.htm#article2

trad123 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:34:48 AM »

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15014a.htm

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Traducianism (tradux, a shoot or sprout, and more specifically a vine branch made to take root so as to propagate the vine), in general the doctrine that, in the process of generation, the human spiritual soul is transmitted to the offspring by the parents.

...materialistic doctrine of the transmission of the soul by the organic process of generation...

(...)

Tertullian, Apollinaris, and a few other heretics advocate Traducianism...

trad123 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:45:36 AM »

Quote from: Clovis

...(St Augustine, Tertullian and I believe also St Gregory of Nyssa aswell as others who I cant think of off hand also believed this).

From the same CE article:

Quote

Generationism...the doctrine according to which the soul of the offspring originates from the parental soul in some mysterious way analogous to that in which the organism originates from the parent's organism.

(...)

Saint Gregory of Nyssa, Macarius, Rufinus, Nemesius, although their views on this point are not always clear, seem to prefer Generationism.

Clovis · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:04:23 AM »

I have never come across any statements in support of the teaching that the soul is created specially by God and than infused into the body at the moment of conception in the Fathers though I realise that St Thomas thought this (and the rest of the scholastics?), Im not saying they dont exist only that I havent seen them while I have come across plenty of support for the other view and therefore I find the assertion that "creationism" was favoured from the beginning rather strange. The CE contains outright heresy aswell as many historical errors so its not a source I trust.

trad123 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:08:46 AM »

Quote from: Clovis

For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedech met him.

Hebrews 7:10 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

I'm trying to find some commentary to explain this, but at the moment I haven't found anything.

Clovis · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:21:58 AM »

If you reject Traducianism/Generationism than how do you explain both the manner of the transmission aswell as the justice of original sin?

trad123 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:26:13 AM »

Quote from: Clovis

If you reject Traducianism/Generationism than how do you explain both the manner of the transmission aswell as the justice of original sin?

In the back of my mind I was wondering how original sin was transferred; very good question, and I do want to know the answer, so let me look it up!

Raoul76 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2010, 11:47:23 AM »

Yeah, after reading this I had the same question as Clovis. Augustine's "generationism" sounds like it is intrinsically bound to his development of the concept of original sin. If you take that away what you have is God expressly creating souls at the moment of conception, out of nothing, with original sin.

Then again, you can see that "generationism" leaves the door wide open for Creatianism ( is that a misspelling? ) "...The soul of the offspring originates from the parental soul in some mysterious way..." The mysterious way is that God infuses it Himself. If you don't come to that conclusion, the only other option, "traducianism," is that souls are produced like sausage links on a factory floor from the original material of the parents, which is certainly a crude and gross theory.

So the problem we are left with is, how can embryos simultaneously share the sin of their first parent, Adam, while being infused directly by God? Why would God directly create souls with original sin? There must be two simultaneous processes happening: The infusion of the soul by God, and the contamination of said soul by its human host. That way, God is not creating tarnished souls ex nihilo.

Clovis, the Catholic Encyclopedia can mostly be trusted. Just beware of any articles signed "Pohle" or "Solliers."

trad123 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2010, 12:12:38 PM »

trad123 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2010, 12:35:51 PM »

http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma6.php

Quote

Errors of the Armenians

BENEDICT XII 1334-1342

533 (5) Also that a certain teacher of the Armenians called Mechitriz, which is interpreted the paraclete, has again introduced and taught that the human soul of the son is propagated from the soul of his father, as the body from his body; and also one angel from another, because since a human soul is rational and an angel is of intellectual nature, they are in a way spiritual lights, and from themselves they propagate other spiritual lights.

http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma19.php

Quote

Errors of Antonius de Rosmini-Serbati

[Condemned in a Decree of the Holy Office, 14th of Dec., 1887]

1910 20. It is not inconsistent that the human soul, in order that it may be multiplied by human generation, may thus be conceived, proceed from the imperfect, namely from the sensitive grade, to the perfect, namely to the intellectual grade.

trad123 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2010, 12:41:38 PM »

http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma4.php

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348 I believe also that there is one author of the New and Old Testament, of the law both of the Prophets and of the Apostles, namely the omnipotent God and Lord. (I believe) that God predestined only the good things, but that He foreknew the good and the evil. I believe and profess that the grace of God precedes and follows man, yet in such a manner that I do not deny free will to the rational creature. I also believe and declare that the soul is not a part of God but was created from nothing and was without baptism subject to original sin.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1118.htm#article2

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Again, the seminal power acts by virtue of the soul of the begetter according as the soul of the begetter is the act of the body, making use of the body in its operation. Now the body has nothing whatever to do in the operation of the intellect. Therefore the power of the intellectual principle, as intellectual, cannot reach the semen. Hence the Philosopher says (De Gener. Animal. ii, 3): "It follows that the intellect alone comes from without."

trad123 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2010, 12:46:27 PM »

Does this mean that Christ's soul was created from nothing? I mean, Christ is truly man (and God), having both a body and a soul.

trad123 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2010, 01:05:12 PM »

Quote from: trad123

Again, from the first part I put in bold:

Quote
original sin...is transmitted in the same way as human nature, through the natural act of generation.

Just to make things clear, the author teaches Creationism in another chapter, several pages before. So, there definitely cannot be a contradiction with this statement, it's just I don't understand it.