Author Topic: A question for Alex (Read 1688 times)

Raoul76 · « **on:** January 05, 2012, 08:30:23 PM »

I was just on the phone with Alex, who told me "I will never be a sede."

My question is: Why is that? How can you just entirely close the door to a theory about the crisis that may be true, and has so much proof in favor of its being true? ( Yes, I think it's a fact, but I'm trying to see it from your perspective ).

If you are a Catholic who wants the truth, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I'll be a sede when I feel that the theory has been proven to me sufficiently?"

Sorry, but to say "I'll never be a sede" is really testing the limits of friendship. It's one thing to believe Vatican II is still the Church for whatever reason, it's another to be a cheerleader for the BEAST OF THE APOCALYPSE. You are starting to get far too defensive about Vatican II, today even posting about the Vatican letting a "nun" go into SSPX like we should care what these heretics allow.

This stuff is getting harder and harder for me to stomach, just to let you know.

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2012, 08:46:13 PM »

Would you be willing to return the favor?

(To phrase your stance in slightly-less-than-absolute terms as you suggest for Alex?)

If not, then don't dish out what you can't take.

I assure you, people like Alex and myself are just as sure of ourselves as you are of yourself. To us, it is plain as day that sedevacantists have taken the wrong path in the Crisis, having thrown the baby out with the bathwater (etc.) as evidenced by a level of fruitfulness comparable to most desert zones, and a level of division & strife comparable to the protestant sects during the Protestant Revolt.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2012, 08:52:34 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

and a level of division & strife comparable to the protestant sects during the Protestant Revolt.

I don't know Matthew...I think a comparison of sedevacantists to the Protestants is over the top.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2012, 08:54:32 PM »

Yes, I can say that if you are right, I will accept that Benedict is Pope. The truth is the main concern here. Obviously I don't think you're right, but if it turns out I'm under some kind of cloud, of course I will change my mind.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2012, 08:57:00 PM »

Alex can barely hear the word "sede" at this point without flipping out. Just the very mention of it is intolerable. Why is that? Doesn't this remind you of Vatican II people who stick their fingers in their ears and go "Neener neener neener"?

Most people I know in SSPX have some sede leanings, or think sedevacantism could very well be true without feeling quite confident enough to take that step. That was how I thought Alex was at first. But this is now something else entirely. It's almost a hatred and hostility towards something that, at the very least, is VERY PLAUSIBLE and very important as well. It feels... wrong. Really wrong.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2012, 09:02:56 PM »

I should clarify: Alex didn't just say "I will never be a sede" but rather shouted it over and over so I couldn't get a word in edgewise. Then I began to ask calmly, over and over "Why not," and then I was hung up upon.

Alex · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2012, 10:41:01 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Alex can barely hear the word "sede" at this point without flipping out. Just the very mention of it is intolerable. Why is that? Doesn't this remind you of Vatican II people who stick their fingers in their ears and go "Neener neener neener"?

Because you've been bombarding me with it for the past 1 1/2 years. Even chased me with it to my grandmother's death bed. I told you when we first met that I was not a sede. I've been telling you for the past 1 1/2 years that I don't want to hear it, yet you keep pushing the issue and trying to force it on me. Like most other areas in your life, you don't know when to let go of things.

Don't start getting mad and trying to argue with me when I tell you "I'll believe what I believe and you believe what you believe and let it go."

You just have to keep following me with this till the ends of the earth, don't you.

For the thousandth time, I don't want to hear it!

Just like you almost drive your self crazy over your constant dwelling on scrupulous thoughts, you are driving me crazy with your constant barrages of sede pushing and negativity. You don't know when to stop (and this is just in this matter but in other areas of your life).

Alex · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2012, 10:42:50 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

I should clarify: Alex didn't just say "I will never be a sede" but rather shouted it over and over so I couldn't get a word in edgewise. Then I began to ask calmly, over and over "Why not," and then I was hung up upon.

I shouted because it is the thousandth time I've told you that I don't want to hear it. I've been telling you for 1 1/2 years I don't want to hear it yet you still keeping harrassing me with it.

Alex · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2012, 10:49:39 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Sorry, but to say "I'll never be a sede" is really testing the limits of friendship. It's one thing to believe Vatican II is still the Church for whatever reason, it's another to be a cheerleader for the BEAST OF THE APOCALYPSE. You are starting to get far too defensive about Vatican II, today even posting about the Vatican letting a "nun" go into SSPX like we should care what these heretics allow.

This stuff is getting harder and harder for me to stomach, just to let you know.

If anyone has had to stomach anything, it has been me. I've had to stomach your negativity and your constant sede barrages for the last couple of years.

You've had to stomach nothing because I don't attack you with any non-sede stuff. I don't even bring it up.

If you feel anything hard to stomach, it is the fact that your pride insists on trying to convince me of the sede position and won't shut up when I tell you I am not interested in arguing over sede vs. non-sede stuff.

I have been more than patient with you considering that I still remained your friend amidst the constant negativity and sede pushing and considering that all this even followed me to my grandmother's death bed and even my time of mourning.

Alex · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2012, 10:53:16 PM »

Quote from: Alex

Just like you almost drive your self crazy over your constant dwelling on scrupulous thoughts, you are driving me crazy with your constant barrages of sede pushing and negativity. You don't know when to stop (and this is just in this matter but in other areas of your life).

I meant

and this is just NOT in this matter but in other areas of your life.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2012, 11:39:29 PM »

Since this has been plastered here for us all to see, I ask: why did a public thread get started about this? It would have been better kept private. Was the understanding between you two that the private conversations could be made public here? Regardless though, after it was done, one can't blame Alex for wanting to reply.

Leaving aside whether the Roman See is vacant or not, it is imprudent to repeatedly argue with anyone about it. It appears that you two would be much better off if you did not converse with each other because neither party seems to be enjoying it or benefitting from it as evidenced by what has been posted here.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 06, 2012, 12:08:22 AM »

Because ( a ) I want Alex to be confronted with what other people think about these matters, as it says in the Bible you admonish your brother once privately and then if that doesn't work you bring in others, and ( b ) We can't have a reasonable conversation about this in person because someone who shall remain nameless enjoys flipping out whenever even the lightest varnish of truth rears its head. This person is so oversensitive and afraid of sedes, that it's almost at the point where they will flip out if I start to say a word beginning with the letter "s" just for fear I'm going to say "sede." It is getting worse and worse; a bad conscience? I don't know. Because I don't preach about sedevacantism nearly as much as this person is making it appear, if at all. They want me to say NOTHING about it EVER, even though of course it comes up naturally in various circuмstances. But they want total silence about the sede issue, while they can say whatever they want.

So I feel the need for arbitration. Alex needs to get a thicker skin and deal with the fact that I'm sede, and also to come to terms with sedevacantism in general. I am not going to NEVER talk about it. It's just not going to happen.

Quote

You've had to stomach nothing because I don't attack you with any non-sede stuff. I don't even bring it up.

Nonsense. You passive-aggressively bring up all kinds of things you know will disgust me, like that you think Mother Theresa is really a saint even though she allegedly didn't try to convert anyone in her hospital and just thought they should all stay in their false religions. When you posted that article by Ben Stein about how this Jєω is being so generous and allowing us to say Merry Christmas... You know EXACTLY how I'm going to react to that.

There is a limit to everything. I am very tolerant of your views despite how strongly you know I disagree with them, but there's a limit to how much I will take. You are too tolerant of VII and if you don't watch out you're going to end up with only VII friends, and there will be no truth in your life. Not even the SSPX people here would be able to stomach a lot of what you say. You really buy into some major lies. And then when you then show such hostility to sedevacantism, it doesn't look good.

I am willing to put up with all this as long as I think your heart is open, but sometimes I wonder, like tonight. If you were someone who cared about the truth, why would you say "I'll never be a sede?"

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2012, 12:13:42 AM »

Best wishes for you two, who I hope can remain friends and help each other.

Alex · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2012, 01:07:59 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Because ( a ) I want Alex to be confronted with what other people think about these matters, as it says in the Bible you admonish your brother once privately and then if that doesn't work you bring in others, and ( b ) We can't have a reasonable conversation about this in person because someone who shall remain nameless enjoys flipping out whenever even the lightest varnish of truth rears its head. This person is so oversensitive and afraid of sedes, that it's almost at the point where they will flip out if I start to say a word beginning with the letter "s" just for fear I'm going to say "sede." It is getting worse and worse; a bad conscience? I don't know. Because I don't preach about sedevacantism nearly as much as this person is making it appear, if at all. They want me to say NOTHING about it EVER, even though of course it comes up naturally in various circuмstances. But they want total silence about the sede issue, while they can say whatever they want.

So I feel the need for arbitration. Alex needs to get a thicker skin and deal with the fact that I'm sede, and also to come to terms with sedevacantism in general. I am not going to NEVER talk about it. It's just not going to happen.

Quote
You've had to stomach nothing because I don't attack you with any non-sede stuff. I don't even bring it up.

Nonsense. You passive-aggressively bring up all kinds of things you know will disgust me, like that you think Mother Theresa is really a saint even though she allegedly didn't try to convert anyone in her hospital and just thought they should all stay in their false religions. When you posted that article by Ben Stein about how this Jєω is being so generous and allowing us to say Merry Christmas... You know EXACTLY how I'm going to react to that.

There is a limit to everything. I am very tolerant of your views despite how strongly you know I disagree with them, but there's a limit to how much I will take. You are too tolerant of VII and if you don't watch out you're going to end up with only VII friends, and there will be no truth in your life. Not even the SSPX people here would be able to stomach a lot of what you say. You really buy into some major lies. And then when you then show such hostility to sedevacantism, it doesn't look good.

I am willing to put up with all this as long as I think your heart is open, but sometimes I wonder, like tonight. If you were someone who cared about the truth, why would you say "I'll never be a sede?"

God help you. Your recollection of events and reality is really warped.

his person is so oversensitive and afraid of sedes, that it's almost at the point where they will flip out if I start to say a word beginning with the letter "s" just for fear I'm going to say "sede." - Give me a break. I can't believe you would even write this and try to convince people that this is true. Unbelieveable how far you will go. Your conversations don't even mention the word sede when they are brought up, they are just ubout the sede issue, not the word, so to make it seem as if I flip out over the "s" word as soon as I hear it is an outright lie. Secondly, as is your constant habit, you seem to think you always know my thoughts and heart. You bring up the "you are afraid of sedes" thing again, when you've brought it up to me before and I've explained to you that I am not afraid of sedes, etc.. I've told you 100 times why I don't want to discuss the sede issue. Yet you always come back and make it seem to me and everyone here that you don't know the reason.

But they want total silence about the sede issue, while they can say whatever they want. - the thing is I don't say whatever I want because I know you don't agree with it. I might mention something in one sentence and then you disagree with it, and then I tell you ok that is your view and my view is different and let it just be that and let us not discuss it any further because we could go in circles forever with the issue. but then you INSIST on arguing over the issue and I keep telling you to keep to your view and I'll keep to mine and let us move on to another topic and you won't. You chase after me like a raging bull with the issue until I have to hang up on you because you won't shut up when I told you I am not interested in getting into a discussion about it.

You passive-aggressively bring up all kinds of things you know will disgust me, like that you think Mother Theresa is really a saint even though she allegedly didn't try to convert anyone in her hospital and just thought they should all stay in their false religions. - it was you who brought up the topic of Mother Teresa, not me. You brought it up after you brought up the issue of whether I believe all the canonization of JPII are valid. You brought up Mother Teresa as an example and I told you that, while I don't know about Escriva, I believe Mother Teresa was an actual saint. And you tried to argue over it and I said, well you believe she is not a saint but I believe she was, so let's just move on. But you insisted on arguing over it, until I began singing to shut you up (I sang to distract myself from getting upset at the fact that you were trying to force me to get in to a discussion about your belief that Mother Teresa was not a saint).

You never remember reality as it is, and see my actions as to blame in instances where it is not, because you suffer from constantly seeing only negative in everything and everyone.

Like I've told you a hundred times, worry about your own soul and let me worry about mine. You are so set on trying to convince me of the sede position. I don't want to hear it. I have enough to worry about working on my soul.

P.S. For everyone here, the reason as to why I don't want to discuss the sede (which I have told Raoul 100 times before yet he still insists on making me get into discussions related to sedevacantism) is:

1) I don't have the mental energy to get into a complicated discussion concerning sede vs non sede issues - considering I just spent the last 8-9 years of my life taking care of my grandmother 24/7, 3 hours sleep, no day off, etc...

2) Even priests and bishops are disagreeing over this issue and have not come to an agreement, so if they have not figured it out, then am I to think that I can figure it out.

3) For me to get into long debates concerning the sede vs. non-sede side will only make us go in circles because there are valid points on both sides. Sedes and non-sedes have been arguing for decades and are still in disagreement and I don't have the energy to join this circular, not going anywhere, debate. (I have enough problems as it is).

4) I have enough work working on the faults of my own soul to concern myself with figuring out sede vs. non-sede. All that will be figured out with the reign of the Holy Pope and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart. Until then, none of us will know the full truth of the matter - until the Holy Pope, as prophecied, will restore all things and, through a council, reveal whether the Popes were valid or not.

5) For me to believe the Pope is valid, and for you to believe that the Pope is invalid, is not going to effect our salvation. We won't be held liable for all this confusion, it is the hierarchy. As long as I know how to be a good traditional Catholic and try not to sin, then that is what matters. I have enough spiritual trials to worry about then to bring another burden on me that neither you nor I can be 100% sure of until the Holy Pope comes.

6) Instead of spewing forth complaints and hatred for the things that are going wrong in the Church, I would rather pray (even though I am not praying as much as I should though). Wasting our time arguing about what is wrong with everything is not going to restore things back to the proper way. It's a waste of time. It would be different if we were like St. Paul and going out and actually preaching to the multitudes in the way of truth. But for you and I to argue over it does nothing. I know the things that are wrong that come out of VII. I know how to be a trad catholic. That is what matters. The rest I leave to God to sort out in His due time.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2012, 02:22:02 AM »

I don't try to preach sedevacantism to you and you know it. Well, maybe once in a while. But to make it sound like I'm just constantly bombarding you is ridiculous. I am well aware that you are not an intellectual and don't have the mind for complex theology, and that you're just following what you think of as the safest route, I get it. I appreciate your other virtues of charity and so on.

Be that as it may, you are so hostile to the sede issue, and you proved it in the other thread about cremation, which I hadn't even read when I started this one, where you criticize "sedes" for not accepting the foul and wrong Vatican II teaching on cremation. But it wasn't even sedes you were talking to, it was SSPX members!

Your position on the crisis is very strange. It is to the left of the SSPX, but in a way it's more consistent, because you really believe what is taught by Vatican II unless it's a blatant heresy. I don't know how long you can keep this up, it's not healthy for the human mind to try to spend this effort trying to make 2 + 2 = 5.

Hearing you support the false teachings of a precursor of Anti-Christ while spilling bile on sedevacantism can be nauseating, let me just tell you that. You are far more accomodating to the wretched evil of VII than you are to the truth-tellers which are the sedes. Again, I know you're not a theologian, but neither are many others, and they are far more repulsed by VII than you are. You aren't repulsed ENOUGH -- it's very clear. There's a sort of line that you seem to almost always be on the border of crossing.