Author Topic: A question about "martyrs" (Read 1912 times)

Matto · « **on:** February 25, 2013, 01:56:11 PM »

This is the question:

There is someone in the Novus Ordo who does not ave the faith, but believes in the new religion. Wat happens if this person, who does not have the true faith, is martyred for being Novus Ordo. This happens frequently in the world today. Is this person a true martyr? Does he go to heaven? Or does he go to hell because he did not have the faith and is not a true martyr?

Philomene Marie · « **Reply #1 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:00:16 PM »

I think this would be a case of Baptism by blood. I can't remember any exact names but during the reign of Diocletian there were people, who were not Catholic, who were so inspired by the martyrs that they were killed right beside them before having the chance to be Baptized. And the Church has declared some of them as saints.

Matto · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:01:53 PM »

Quote from: Philomene Marie

I think this would be a case of Baptism by blood.

No, this is not a case of Baptism of Blood because these people were already Baptized in the Novus Ordo. Since Novus Ordo Baptisms are usually valid, they do not need to be baptized by blood.

The question is whether someone already baptized who does not have the true faith can be a true martyr.

Stubborn · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:09:22 PM »

Quote from: Matto

The question is whether someone already baptized who does not have the true faith can be a true martyr.

No, they are martyred in vain, no matter how sincere they are in their error.

brainglitch · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:12:45 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Matto

The question is whether someone already baptized who does not have the true faith can be a true martyr.

No, they are martyred in vain, no matter how sincere they are in their error.[/quote

And do you have a list of who is in heaven and who is not?

Stubborn · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:16:05 PM »

No, but we are all a bunch of nuts for trying to persevere unto the end in the true faith if a non Catholic can die for their faith and make it to heaven.

Stubborn · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:17:23 PM »

There is no salvation out side the Catholic Church.

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:22:30 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

No, they are martyred in vain, no matter how sincere they are in their error.

This is my opinion, unless the good God inspires them with the true faith as they are being martyred, which is possible.

brainglitch · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:23:24 PM »

If they were validly baptized then they are Catholic. End of story. And despite whatever sins they may have committed, or errors they may have held, the blood they shed in Christ's name will be their salvation. For in this case they do not die outside the Church, but in it. If "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends", then what shall we say of one who lays down his life for Christ? There are recorded instances of pagans, with the barest knowledge of the Catholic Faith, who were so moved by the martyrs that they laid down their lives for Christ, and by doing so came into His Church. And what of the Good Thief, St. Dismas?

Stubborn · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2013, 02:36:05 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: Stubborn
No, they are martyred in vain, no matter how sincere they are in their error.

This is my opinion, unless the good God inspires them with the true faith as they are being martyred, which is possible.

The thing is that you asked if they were martyred *for being Novis Ordo* would they go to heaven - I believe that certainly the answer must be the same as if a Lutheran is martyred for being Lutheran, the answer must be, no.

I don't think a NOer would die for the NO anyway since compromise is a built in belief of the NO. . . . . . not that even Catholics strong in the faith all have the courage to be martyred for the faith - I'm not saying that.

The NO is a completely different religion with a different form of worship, has a different set of beliefs, a different lex orandi, is inherently anti-tradition and therefore anti-Catholic and the list goes on and on ad nausem. I don't think a NO martyred for the NO faith would make it.

Anthony Benedict · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2013, 04:21:09 PM »

A distinction is in order. There are Nervous Ordealers who are "conservative" to the extent that they, like us, deplore liturgical depravity, episcopal laxity and a host of other noxious "-isms" familiar to Trads. They might become Trads, given the time and study required, in some cases.

Then there are the "liberals", pure and simple. Any connection between them and orthodox Catholicism is completely accidental. The most identifiable group within that much larger communities is the Western episcopacy.

Stubborn · « **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2013, 05:10:01 PM »

Quote from: Anthony Benedict

A distinction is in order. There are Nervous Ordealers who are "conservative" to the extent that they, like us, deplore liturgical depravity, episcopal laxity and a host of other noxious "-isms" familiar to Trads. They might become Trads, given the time and study required, in some cases.

Then there are the "liberals", pure and simple. Any connection between them and orthodox Catholicism is completely accidental. The most identifiable group within that much larger communities is the Western episcopacy.

I don't disagree, but Matto did not ask us to speculate on their state of conscience - - only if the person did not have the faith and was martyred for being Novus Ordo would he get to heaven - I think it's a good question to ask, one which many never even think about.

Personally, I myself have not been able to go to the NO for my whole life for a specific reason - that reason is because too many others who went *lost* the faith completely. That being the case, it is a danger to the faith and therefore a danger, not an aid to our salvation, as such, it only makes sense that one should run from it, not hope to die a martyr for the evil thing.

Sigismund · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2013, 05:18:52 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Matto

The question is whether someone already baptized who does not have the true faith can be a true martyr.

No, they are martyred in vain, no matter how sincere they are in their error.

What a breathtakingly arrogant statement.

Stubborn · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2013, 05:20:43 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Matto

The question is whether someone already baptized who does not have the true faith can be a true martyr.

No, they are martyred in vain, no matter how sincere they are in their error.

What a breathtakingly arrogant statement.

What a completely useless post.

Why not attempt to be on topic and edify us with your opinion on how one without the faith who is martyred for a faith that is anti-Catholic is saved on account of it.

Sigismund · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2013, 07:08:14 PM »

I am not questioning the notion that those without the Catholic faith can not die as martyrs for the Catholic faith. That is a tautology. I am questioning the notion that the millions of Catholics are not really Catholic and that only a relative handful of trads really deserve the name. That is what I find arrogant, and it is an arrogance by no means required by being a traditionalist.