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Author Topic: A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.  (Read 1568 times)

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Offline cathman7

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A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
« on: December 28, 2006, 03:59:29 PM »
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  • " The Lord, by the Pope and the hierarchy -- by the hierarchy subject to the Pope --- governs His Church in such a way that it is always secure in the possession and understanding of its tradition. On the truths of the catechism, on the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice and on the sacraments, on the fundamental structure of the hierarchy, on the states of life and the call to perfect love, let us say on all the major points of tradition, the Church is assisted in such way that any baptized Catholic having the faith clearly knows what he must hold. Thus the simple Christian who, consulting tradition on a major point known to all, would refuse to follow a priest, a bishop, an episcopal conference, or even a Pope who would ruin tradition on this point, would not, as some charge, be showing signs characteristic of private judgment or pride; for it is not pride or insubordination to discern what the tradition is on major points, or to refuse to betray them. Whatever may be the collegiality of bishops, for example, or the secretary of the Roman Congregation who uses subterfuge to arrange things so that Catholic priests end up celebrating the Mass without giving any mark of adoration, no exterior sign of faith in the sacred mysteries, every faithful Catholic knows that it is inadmissable to celebrate Mass making this display of non-faith. One who would refuse to go to such a Mass is not exercising private judgment; he is not a rebel. He is a faithful Catholic established in a tradition that comes from the Apostles and which non one in the Church can change. For no one in the Church, whatever the hierarchical rank, be it ever so high, no one has the power to change the Church or the Apostolic tradition.

    On all major points, the Apostolic tradition is quite clear. There is no need to scrutinize it through a magnifying glass, nor to be a cardinal or a prefect of some Roman dicastery to know what is against it. It is enough to have been instructed by the catechism and the liturgy prior to the modernist corruption.

    Too often, when it is a question of not cutting oneself off from Rome, the faithful and priests have been formed in the sense of a partly worldly fear in such a way that they feel panic-stricken, that they are shaken in their consciences and they no longer examine anything once the first passer-by accuses them of not being with Rome. A truly Christian formation, on the contrary, teaches us to be careful to be in union with Rome not in fear or without discernment, but in light and peace according to filial fear in the Faith.

    For it must be said, first of all, that on the major points the tradition of the Church is established, certain, irreformable; then, that every Christian instructed in the rudiments of the Faith, knows them without hesitation; thirdly, that it is faith and not private interpretation which makes us discern them, just as it is obedience, piety and love, and not insubordination, which makes us uphold this tradition; fourthly, that the attempts of the hierarchy or the weaknesses of the Pope which would tend to upset this tradition or let this tradition be upset will one day be overturned, while Tradition will triumph."

    - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P. (Si Si No No, Angelus Reprint January 2006), 1972


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #1 on: December 28, 2006, 04:22:43 PM »
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  • Quote
    "For no one in the Church, whatever the hierarchical rank, be it ever so high, no one has the power to change the Church or the Apostolic tradition."


    Ah, but this is precisely what seems to have taken place.  There are only three possible conclusions:

    1. There has not actually been any substantial change - which is absurd.

    2. There has been a substantial change, but this somehow has no effect upon the continued possession of power within Holy Church - i.e., actions do not actually have consequences, and the wreckovation can and will continue unabated.

    3. There has been - as is plain to all - a monumental, substantial change, and this cannot have proceeded from the Immaculate Spouse of Christ, but a mere counterfeit.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #2 on: December 28, 2006, 04:26:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Trinity
    I need help understanding this.


    It means you can discern whether or not what proceeds from what is supposedly the Supreme Authority on earth is actually Catholic.  If not, just toss it.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #3 on: December 28, 2006, 05:03:16 PM »
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  • I shall pray for you, my lady.  I do not mean to be flippant, but is it clear to you at this stage where the Church is not?  She is not in an apostatical (ecuмenical) society.  To call such institutional apostasy "weaknesses of the Pope" is ridiculous, imo.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #4 on: December 28, 2006, 05:36:33 PM »
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  • Visibility is often misunderstood in these days.  How 'visible' was She in the catacombs?  For the first three centuries?  

    In these days of mega-stars and instant images from around the world, the concept of visibility is quite skewed, imo.

    An excerpt taken from The Catholic Controversy, by St. Francis de Sales, BpCD:

    "Our Lord had in his humanity two parts, body and soul; so the Church his spouse has two parts, the one interior, which is as her soul, invisible -- Faith, Hope, Charity, Grace -- the other exterior, as her body, and visible -- the Confession of Faith, Praises and Canticles, Preaching, Sacraments, Sacrifices.  Yea all that is done in the Church has its exterior and its interior.  Prayer is interior and exterior; Faith fills the heart with assurance and the mouth with confession; Preaching is made exteriorly by men, but the secret light of the Heavenly Father is required in it, for we must always hear from him and learn from him before coming to the Son; and as to the Sacraments, the sign is exterior but the grace is interior, as everyone knows."

    "But what is the Church?  An assembly of men who have flesh and bones; and are we to say it is but a spirit or phantom, which seems to be visible, and is so only by illusion?"
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline cathman7

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #5 on: December 28, 2006, 06:36:50 PM »
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  • Eamon,

    Since the Catholic Church is hierarchical by nature then where can this Hierarchy be found?

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #6 on: December 28, 2006, 07:26:41 PM »
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  • Alex,

    May I first ask you to define "hierarchical"?  Often these discussions get off track from the outset because those involved mean different things when using the same terms.  Thank you.

    You also might ask yourself: If Holy Church is monarchical by nature, where does She go when She has no earthly monarch - as has been the case numerous times, even for years at a clip?

    Imo, this unintended "apples and oranges" scenario where terms are concerned is exactly what happens when discussing "visibility".
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #7 on: December 28, 2006, 07:36:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Trinity
    ...is not the exterior sacrament itself necessary to gain the interior grace?


    No, it is not strictly necessary.  This is exactly what a spiritual communion is all about - receiving the grace of the Sacrament, but not the Sacrament itself.  The same may be said for the effects of perfect contrition upon the soul, as opposed to Sacramental confession and absolution.  The latter is necessary if one would receive the other Sacraments after having committed a mortal sin, but the former truly and completely cleanses the soul.  This principle is also at play in Baptism of desire or blood, versus the Sacrament of Baptism.  All three give the grace of the Sacrament, although only one is actually a Sacrament.  Lastly, it is also possible to receive the Sacrament, but not the grace.  This is the case when a man receives Holy Communion while in a state of mortal sin.  The Sacrament and the grace of the Sacrament are two different things, and either one may be received without the other - although it is clearly desireable to receive both at the same time, whenever possible.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #8 on: December 28, 2006, 07:45:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Trinity
    I really need the sacraments.


    If I may ask: Where are you located in the USA?  If you desire to tell me, but wish to keep it private, send me a PM.  I may know a priest in your general area.

    I lived without them for a while myself.  I sympathize with your plight.  However, please do not ever forget that God does not need them to give you grace.  He instituted them, and He desires that we make use of them.  If we cannot, through no fault of our own, He will not fail to provide the necessary graces to each of us.  Even when one has access to the Sacraments, he often receives countless other graces which are not obtained sacramentally - such as those obtained through prayer, mortification, etc.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline cathman7

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #9 on: December 28, 2006, 08:03:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Alex,

    May I first ask you to define "hierarchical"?  Often these discussions get off track from the outset because those involved mean different things when using the same terms.  Thank you.

    You also might ask yourself: If Holy Church is monarchical by nature, where does She go when She has no earthly monarch - as has been the case numerous times, even for years at a clip?

    Imo, this unintended "apples and oranges" scenario where terms are concerned is exactly what happens when discussing "visibility".


    I apologize for my own confused question.  It was certainly unintentional and in no way was it meant to sidetrack this discussion.  As the scholastics would say "define your terms"!!!

    According to Van Noort the following is a certain proposition: "It is due to the institution of Christ Himself that the Church is visible" (Christ's Church, p. 12).  I am only trying to understand but if the Church is visible must it not be easily discernible as Van Noort claims was taught by the Early Church Fathers?

    To be clear, what does it mean to say the Church is visible?

    And what do people (myself included) often misunderstand when discussing this issue?



    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #10 on: December 29, 2006, 04:41:09 PM »
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  • SE Kansas, eh?  I will look into the options in that general area.  I know a great priest from Neodesha - a 92 year-old Franciscan who never said the TLM with the all-English canon, much less the NOM - but he has long since been in the Chicago area.  I will get back to you.  Btw, my father was born in Winfield.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #11 on: December 29, 2006, 04:43:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: obscurus
    To be clear, what does it mean to say the Church is visible?...And what do people (myself included) often misunderstand when discussing this issue?


    Sorry, Alex.  I just read this post.  I will answer your questions as best I can, but it will have to wait until tomorrow or Sunday.  God reward your patience.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    A Layman's Right - Fr. Roger Calmel, O.P.
    « Reply #12 on: January 04, 2007, 09:45:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Trinity
    Funny you should mention Neodesha.  My husband works there and we live 8 miles away from it.  My daughter lives in and goes to school in Winfield.  Didn't know that was Irish country. Small world.


    Indeed it is.

    Quote
    Have you been to the beautiful Flint Hills?


    I passed through that area a few years back, as I was making my way from CO to Ava, MO.  I was going to visit what I thought at the time was a Trappist monastery.  'Twas beautiful country from what I recall.

    Quote
    I can hardly wait.


    I will get you his address later today (if I have it here), or when I return to Cincinnati (Saturday).  

    Addendum: I just sent his address to your email.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."