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Author Topic: A Grave, but Undefined Charge  (Read 1468 times)

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Offline Caminus

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A Grave, but Undefined Charge
« on: June 18, 2011, 10:53:18 AM »
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  • scipio stated in another thread, "But I don't buy any of the cultural baggage that most trads hoist onto themselves in an effort to become more trad...which hoisting is funny....because of the paradox it creates...it actually makes them less trad often times...if they take it too far....such as women dressing almost like mohams....positively indecent and immodest...and completely uncatholic."

    Please define in precise terms this alleged "cultural baggage" that literally, even magically, makes one less of a Catholic, e.g. cite specific examples and how it is relegated to relativistic notions of "culture" not touching upon morality; and please explain how precisely relativistic cultural phenomena can make one less catholic, since by definition the alleged problem is one of a relative cultural nature.  In other words, how can purely accidental, non-essential cultural habits be at once non-essential or relative and yet make one less Catholic?  Any thing or idea that makes one less Catholic is a thing or idea that touches upon the essence of the faith, religion and morality.

    And also please explain how it is that while you are busy criticizing your neighbors and their motives while they are trying in good faith to be obedient to the will of God, as indicated by the Church and Her Saints, even if I granted that it was erroneously expressed in the concrete, in good faith no less, does not reflect a grave defect in your own intellect and heart?

    Do you not find it ironic that in the final analysis, that you are making your own cultural preferences and assumptions out to be a quasi-dogmatic requirement for all Catholics?  But first, maybe you should be so kind as to define your terms and their concrete application before when investigate this irony.  


    Offline Daegus

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    « Reply #1 on: June 18, 2011, 11:15:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    scipio stated in another thread, "But I don't buy any of the cultural baggage that most trads hoist onto themselves in an effort to become more trad...which hoisting is funny....because of the paradox it creates...it actually makes them less trad often times...if they take it too far....such as women dressing almost like mohams....positively indecent and immodest...and completely uncatholic."

    Please define in precise terms this alleged "cultural baggage" that literally, even magically, makes one less of a Catholic, e.g. cite specific examples and how it is relegated to relativistic notions of "culture" not touching upon morality; and please explain how precisely relativistic cultural phenomena can make one less catholic, since by definition the alleged problem is one of a relative cultural nature.  In other words, how can purely accidental, non-essential cultural habits be at once non-essential or relative and yet make one less Catholic?  Any thing or idea that makes one less Catholic is a thing or idea that touches upon the essence of the faith, religion and morality.

    And also please explain how it is that while you are busy criticizing your neighbors and their motives while they are trying in good faith to be obedient to the will of God, as indicated by the Church and Her Saints, even if I granted that it was erroneously expressed in the concrete, in good faith no less, does not reflect a grave defect in your own intellect and heart?

    Do you not find it ironic that in the final analysis, that you are making your own cultural preferences and assumptions out to be a quasi-dogmatic requirement for all Catholics?  But first, maybe you should be so kind as to define your terms and their concrete application before when investigate this irony.  


    Hopefully this is not a serious question.

    Do you think scipio ever has a grasp of what he's talking about? It wouldn't seem as though he does, going off of what he posts on this website.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra


    Offline Exilenomore

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    « Reply #2 on: June 18, 2011, 11:21:37 AM »
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  • There must always be a norm to be upheld when it comes to modesty. This norm is not merely accidental and cannot be subject to the waves of change. I concede that there are accidental elements of clothing which can change with time, but these changes must never injure the norm of christian modesty. Objectivity in faith and morals is one of the reasons people adhere to traditional catholicism. Without this objectivity, one's religion is reduced to mere aesthetical preferences and lipservice to God. That is what pharisaïsm really is, while this term is often, by these same persons, ironically hurled at those who seek to keep the moral life intact.

    There is nothing extravagant about concealing one's nakedness. It is, on the contrary, a necessity in order to cultivate piety. The very fact that this natural law has to be defended against derision and insults shows the depth of perversion which has saturated contemporary culture.


    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #3 on: June 18, 2011, 11:45:55 AM »
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  • Quote
    Objectivity in faith and morals is one of the reasons people adhere to traditional catholicism.


    And this is precisely what I'm driving at.  To assert that an effort to attain a modest exterior is relativistic cultural "baggage" is to divorce it from morality, which admits of an objective norm.  How this is manifested admits of diversity, but the fact that it is manifested is no mere cultural phenomenon, it is nothing less than the demands of virtue.  And lest we forget, exterior modesty is but the shell, the true virtue that motivates it is chastity.  A person can dress modestly but still be unchaste, whereas a truly chaste person will certainly comport themselves in a modest manner both in behavor and dress.  So those who mock the efforts of other to retain a modest appearance are really at base, unchaste souls who find the entire affair unintelligible.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    « Reply #4 on: June 18, 2011, 11:55:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: Daegus

    Do you think scipio ever has a grasp of what he's talking about? It wouldn't seem as though he does, going off of what he posts on this website.


    I think that Scipio is smarter than he seems.  I mean, he has to be.  :)


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #5 on: June 18, 2011, 11:57:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Daegus

    Do you think scipio ever has a grasp of what he's talking about? It wouldn't seem as though he does, going off of what he posts on this website.


    I think that Scipio is smarter than he seems.  I mean, he has to be.  :)


    If he is then it would suggest he is deliberately evil.  I think we've seen pretty good evidence that Erin is deliberately evil.  I doubt she's the only one over there.

    Offline Jaynek

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    « Reply #6 on: June 18, 2011, 12:03:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Daegus

    Do you think scipio ever has a grasp of what he's talking about? It wouldn't seem as though he does, going off of what he posts on this website.


    I think that Scipio is smarter than he seems.  I mean, he has to be.  :)


    If he is then it would suggest he is deliberately evil.  I think we've seen pretty good evidence that Erin is deliberately evil.  I doubt she's the only one over there.


    I don't think that Scipio is evil.  I have the impression that he thinks forums are a big game in which it is just part of the fun to offend and insult people.  He really does not seem to grasp that he dealing with people and that he doing something wrong.

    Offline wallflower

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    « Reply #7 on: June 18, 2011, 12:04:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Daegus

    Do you think scipio ever has a grasp of what he's talking about? It wouldn't seem as though he does, going off of what he posts on this website.


    I think that Scipio is smarter than he seems.  I mean, he has to be.  :)


    If he is then it would suggest he is deliberately evil.  I think we've seen pretty good evidence that Erin is deliberately evil.  I doubt she's the only one over there.


    Maybe he's been teaching us all a lesson in satirical form and now that we have learned our lesson and will be more careful not to attribute Papal powers to our opinions, he will put his mission aside and be normal again.


    Offline Exilenomore

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    « Reply #8 on: June 18, 2011, 12:13:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus

    And lest we forget, exterior modesty is but the shell, the true virtue that motivates it is chastity.  A person can dress modestly but still be unchaste, whereas a truly chaste person will certainly comport themselves in a modest manner both in behavor and dress.  


    Indeed, and even this truth is often warped by those who seek to reconcile the spirit of the world with christian morals, into an unfounded accusation that the proponents of modesty in dress care only about externals, as if body and soul are supposed to be completely alienated from each other.

    I cannot help but notice a resemblance to some kind of dualism in the undertone of such accusations, in that they seemingly seek to convince people that it does not matter what you do with your body, as long as the 'spirit' is tended to. Matter unimportant, spirit important. In reality, however, both body and soul have their dignity and christians must constantly strive to restore the harmony between the two (in the measure that this is possible of course, because true perfection can never be attained in this life).

    Offline Daegus

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    « Reply #9 on: June 18, 2011, 12:13:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Daegus

    Do you think scipio ever has a grasp of what he's talking about? It wouldn't seem as though he does, going off of what he posts on this website.


    I think that Scipio is smarter than he seems.  I mean, he has to be.  :)


    If he is then it would suggest he is deliberately evil.  I think we've seen pretty good evidence that Erin is deliberately evil.  I doubt she's the only one over there.


    I don't think that Scipio is evil.  I have the impression that he thinks forums are a big game in which it is just part of the fun to offend and insult people.  He really does not seem to grasp that he dealing with people and that he doing something wrong.


    ... Which brings me back to my original point; that he has no idea of what it is he's talking about.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra

    Offline Daegus

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    « Reply #10 on: June 18, 2011, 12:16:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Daegus

    Do you think scipio ever has a grasp of what he's talking about? It wouldn't seem as though he does, going off of what he posts on this website.


    I think that Scipio is smarter than he seems.  I mean, he has to be.  :)


    If he is then it would suggest he is deliberately evil.  I think we've seen pretty good evidence that Erin is deliberately evil.  I doubt she's the only one over there.


    Maybe he's been teaching us all a lesson in satirical form and now that we have learned our lesson and will be more careful not to attribute Papal powers to our opinions, he will put his mission aside and be normal again.


    I'm sure most here would agree that we, of all people, don't need lessons on anything Catholic from a self-described "trad" who doesn't seem to find anything wrong with modern dress codes. I hardly find it fitting to be lectured by a layman on Catholicism when he doesn't even seem to know his own faith very well. Either that or he doesn't care.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra


    Offline Exilenomore

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    « Reply #11 on: June 18, 2011, 02:32:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exilenomore
    as long as the 'spirit' is tended to.


    That word was not supposed to be put between prime symbols. My apologies.

    Offline wallflower

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    « Reply #12 on: June 18, 2011, 04:32:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Daegus
    Quote from: wallflower
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: Daegus

    Do you think scipio ever has a grasp of what he's talking about? It wouldn't seem as though he does, going off of what he posts on this website.


    I think that Scipio is smarter than he seems.  I mean, he has to be.  :)


    If he is then it would suggest he is deliberately evil.  I think we've seen pretty good evidence that Erin is deliberately evil.  I doubt she's the only one over there.


    Maybe he's been teaching us all a lesson in satirical form and now that we have learned our lesson and will be more careful not to attribute Papal powers to our opinions, he will put his mission aside and be normal again.


    I'm sure most here would agree that we, of all people, don't need lessons on anything Catholic from a self-described "trad" who doesn't seem to find anything wrong with modern dress codes. I hardly find it fitting to be lectured by a layman on Catholicism when he doesn't even seem to know his own faith very well. Either that or he doesn't care.


    That's what I mean by it being satirical.  :wink:  Embodying a flaw we all have to varying degrees and making it ironic, exaggerated, so that it must be noticed and discussed.

    It's a tongue in cheek suggestion, far-fetched I know, but I don't think he is coming from a place of evil either. I hope not anyway.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #13 on: June 18, 2011, 04:42:23 PM »
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  • I don't know is scipio is a he or she, but either way he/she needs to do some research because as of right now he/she is clueless.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.