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Author Topic: Was the Blessed Mother Baptized?  (Read 2919 times)

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Was the Blessed Mother Baptized?
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 05:13:39 PM »
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There is nothing wrong with supposing that Our Blessed Mother received
holy Baptism.  After all, she received the Holy Ghost at least twice, once
at the Incarnation of Our Lord and then again at the Descent of the Holy
Ghost upon the Apostles in the upper room.  In our time, confirmation
cannot be given to a candidate until first he has been baptized -- why
would it have been otherwise for the Apostles, or, for Our Lady?

She was ritually purified at the 4th Joyful Mystery of the Rosary, the
Presentation, not because she "needed it," but because it was an
important part of sacred Tradition and Jєωιѕн law.  

It would be impossible for her to have been given absolution with the
Sacrament of Penance for her sins, because she had no sins to confess.
That fact alone would have been something the Apostles understood
because they lived with her.

We have no problem believing she received Holy Communion, even
though It was the same Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity that she had kept
in her own personal and immaculate womb for 9 months.  

And you can be pretty sure she received Extreme Unction from St. John
himself, or one of the other Apostles, before her 'dormition.'  I used to
wonder why they would have put her body in a tomb if they were not
absolutely sure she was dead.  But perhaps they wanted to protect her
from criminals or something, and so would not leave her body outside
the protection of a tomb.  

Anyway, as for Baptism, Our Lord was baptized in the Jordan by St.
John the Baptist, but that was not holy Baptism, but only the baptism
of John, which was a precursor to holy Baptism.  St. John did not say,
"I baptize you, __(name)__, in the name of the Father,
and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."  In fact, it would be a bit odd
for Our Lord to be baptized in the name of Himself, don't you think?  

It is universally concluded that holy Baptism was instituted when Our
Lord ascended into heaven, saying, "Going therefore, teach all nations:
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
Holy Ghost" (Mt. xxviii. 19).  But that doesn't mean he could not have
made exactly one exception for His own mother.  On the other hand,
it could be that they went into the Upper Room for 9 days and baptized
each other, including even the women and the other disciples who were
with them.

We don't have any definitive teaching on this, but neither do we have
any definitive prohibition.  

The part quoted above in Agreda's Mystical City of God (certainly a
marvelous compendium of holy writing but not a source of definitive
doctrine) where it has Our Lord giving His mother baptism when He
had collected 5 off the 12 Apostles, is curious to say the least.  Was
it the baptism of John that is alluded to?  It doesn't have Jesus saying
the necessary words of holy Baptism there, which is a good thing,
because if it did, the entire 4 volumes may have been put on the
Index as a result!!  As it is, it is one of the most effusively commended
books in all of Christian history, for several popes have awarded it
great praise.  

Jesus COULD have baptized His mother before he instituted the
sacrament of Baptism, but we are not required to believe that He did.

We don't know if all the Apostles were baptized by John in the Jordan,
either, or if the women were so baptized by John.  And if they were,
then surely Our Blessed Mother would have been among them.  

We don't have any reason to think that many of those who had been
baptized by John the Baptist were then later baptized by the Apostles
or the priests they ordained, because the baptism of John was not a
sacrament, since it was not instituted by Christ.

But the one thing that would be a reason for her to be Baptized is,
that holy Baptism does two things.  It cleanses the soul from the
stain of original sin (which Our Lady did not need to have done), and
it also marks the soul with the indelible mark of holy Baptism, which
endures for all eternity.  Now, why would Our Lady be the only
exception, and lacking that special grace, when she is 'full of grace'?  




Was the Blessed Mother Baptized?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 05:19:34 PM »
Sigismund, I have no doubt whatsoever of the virtuous life of either Agreda or Emmerich. My concern is, as always, that even the most exacting investigation by the most prudent theologians ( some of whom have been Saints, themselves ) can only go just so far in affording limited, cautious approbation.

In the case of Agreda, the Pope at that time himself said it was her "mystical" writings that prompted His ban on Catholics reading them.

I've been through Knox's "Enthusiasm", Tanqueray's "Spiritual Life" and St. John of the Cross. They are emphatic and unanimous on the point of the dogmatic nature and ends of "private revelation" inasmuch as for every 10,000 claims of an "experience" or "message" by even the most sincere, pious soul, there may be only one or two demonstrable instances worthy of pious consideration.


Was the Blessed Mother Baptized?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2013, 11:11:31 PM »
That is reasonable.  

Was the Blessed Mother Baptized?
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2013, 02:52:19 AM »
Quote from: Anthony Benedict
Sigismund, I have no doubt whatsoever of the virtuous life of either Agreda or Emmerich. My concern is, as always, that even the most exacting investigation by the most prudent theologians ( some of whom have been Saints, themselves ) can only go just so far in affording limited, cautious approbation.

In the case of Agreda, the Pope at that time himself said it was her "mystical" writings that prompted His ban on Catholics reading them.

I've been through Knox's "Enthusiasm", Tanqueray's "Spiritual Life" and St. John of the Cross. They are emphatic and unanimous on the point of the dogmatic nature and ends of "private revelation" inasmuch as for every 10,000 claims of an "experience" or "message" by even the most sincere, pious soul, there may be only one or two demonstrable instances worthy of pious consideration.


I kind of go the opposite direction. Unless the private revelation hurts the Faith -- and I can see nothing that either Agreda or Emmerich wrote that would hurt the Faith -- I tend to believe what they write is true. The Church leadership is commonly -- almost always, I should say -- skeptical of private interpretation and new revelations. But, if they are true, the Church ends up approving them in due time.

I think what St. Alphonsus Liguori (one of the Doctors of the Church) wrote in Glories of Mary fits well here.

Quote
If I may be allowed to make a short digression, and give my own sentiment here, it is, that when an opinion tends in any way to the honor of the Most Blessed Virgin, when it has some foundation, and is not repugnant to the faith, nor to the decrees of the Church, nor to truth, the refusal to hold it, or to oppose it because the reverse may be true, shows little devotion to the Mother of God. I do not choose to be counted in that company, nor do I wish my reader to be so, but rather of the number of those who fully and firmly believe all that can without error be believed of the greatness of Mary, according to Abbot Rupert, who, amongst the acts of homage most pleasing to this good Mother, places that of firmly believing all that redounds to her honor. If there were nothing else to take away our fear of exceeding the praises of Mary, St. Augustine should suffice; he declares that anything we may say in praise of Mary is little in comparison with that which she deserves, because of her dignity as Mother of God; and moreover, the Church says, in the Mass appointed for her festivals, "Thou art happy, O Sacred Virgin Mary, and most worthy of all praise."

Was the Blessed Mother Baptized?
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2013, 11:10:12 AM »
Thanks for the replies, gents.

I certainly agree with St. Alphonsus, else I would be no Catholic at all.

My point, above, had to do with "claims" - pious and subjectively sincere as they may be - by anyone convinced she is receiving little visits from the Great Beyond. I've met several "recipients", so-called, over the years and had serious discussions with a couple of them.

My advice to them was the same as St. John of the Cross offers - flee this temptation. IF ( the condition consistently overlooked by apparition chasers ) there is anything to it, it is God's work to manifest that.

Such has been proven in the cases of St. Catherine of Siena, St. Gertrude, St. Birgitta of Sweden, St. Margaret Mary, St. Bernadette, Bl. Jacinta and Bl. Francisco of Fatima, etc.

This is NOT to say that true contemplatives ( and more rarely others who are nothing of the kind ) never receive lights, illuminations, inspirations and the like. They may. But being TRUE contemplatives, they say or do nothing. but instead report them to their spiritual advisor and obey him.