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Author Topic: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance  (Read 1590 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2020, 08:44:06 AM »
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  • Baptism of Desire which is De fide according to St. Alphonsus
    And according to Ott, it is not de fide.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #16 on: February 12, 2020, 08:44:33 AM »
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  • And according to Ott, it is not de fide.
    However, Fr. Feeney did not deny BOD.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #17 on: February 12, 2020, 08:55:10 AM »
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  • Quote
    Q. Can a man be saved without baptism?
       A. He cannot, unless he have it either actual or in desire, with contrition, or to be baptized in his blood as the holy Innocents were, which suffered for Christ.

    This is what St Thomas thought too.  As well as St Alphonsus.  One could make the argument that this lines up with Trent.
    .
    If all Catholics who preach BOD used the above definition, with ALL of its requirements, then the debate over BOD would be over.  I have no problem with the above, nor would Fr Feeney, since it does not water-down EENS.  Fr Feeney was fighting the pre-V2, salvation-for-all, one-world-religion, modernists;  He was not fighting the above.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #18 on: February 12, 2020, 09:02:23 AM »
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  • This is what St Thomas thought too.  As well as St Alphonsus.  One could make the argument that this lines up with Trent.
    .
    If all Catholics who preach BOD used the above definition, with ALL of its requirements, then the debate over BOD would be over.  I have no problem with the above, nor would Fr Feeney, since it does not water-down EENS.  Fr Feeney was fighting the pre-V2, salvation-for-all, one-world-religion, modernists;  He was not fighting the above.
    The above is my position as well as that of Hugon, Garrigou-Lagrange, etc. Which pre-V2 theologians taught salvation for all/world religions?
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #19 on: February 12, 2020, 09:18:48 AM »
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  • However, Fr. Feeney did not deny BOD.

    Correct.  This attack on BoD is nothing but a smokescreen for those who deny EENS dogma.  Very few of them restrict BoD to catechumens and therefore essentially hold that non-Catholics can be saved, which is heresy.  I love it how the heretics try to make the charge of heresy.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #20 on: February 12, 2020, 09:20:46 AM »
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  • The above is my position as well as that of Hugon, Garrigou-Lagrange, etc. Which pre-V2 theologians taught salvation for all/world religions?

    Jesuit deLugo was cited by XavierSem.  On a separate thread, Garrigou-Lagrange was cited as saying the exact same thing as deLugo.  So either you're wrong about Garrigou-Lagrange, or else you entertain a strange distortion of what St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus taught.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #21 on: February 12, 2020, 09:52:11 AM »
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  • Jesuit deLugo was cited by XavierSem.  On a separate thread, Garrigou-Lagrange was cited as saying the exact same thing as deLugo.  So either you're wrong about Garrigou-Lagrange, or else you entertain a strange distortion of what St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus taught.
    That thread about Garrigou-Lagrange quotes a passage where he is clearly speculating. Here is what  Garrigou says in another placecwhen commenting on the Summa ( in Latin as im sure you can read it and I don’t have time translate at the moment)
    “Hereticus pertinax est, quoad veritates supernaturales quas retinet, sicut philosophus scepticus, qui negat valorem ontologicuм principii contradictionis et proinde ipsius rationis, erga veritates naturales quas retinere vult ; non potest amplius eas retinere propter motivum necessarium, sed solum propter aliquod motivum contingens, fundans opinionem tantum.…
    Objectio : Haereticus hunc articulum negat, non quia credit Deum fallibilem in revelando, sed quia non apprehendit hunc articulum ut revelatum. Alios autem articulos tenet, quia apprehendit illos ut revelatos. Unde non recedit ab auctoritate Dei revelantis, sed solum a propositione Ecclesiae, et alios articulos tenet fide infusa…
    ® : Haec omnia essent vera, si sola inspiratio privata vel examen privatum esset proxima regula fidei, sed Christus voluit et nobis revelavit Ecclesiam esse proximam fidei regulam ; et ideo ille qui hanc revelationem cognoscens, recedit pertinaciter ab Ecclesia, non solum recedit a conditione sine qua non fidei catholicae, sed recedit ab ipso motivo formali ipsius fidei infusae, etiam ut infusa est, et non solum ut catholica est.”
    He is clear that the proximate rule of faith is the proposition of the Church and so a Protestant ( or any 9ther pertinacious heretic) who rejects that does not have the faith.( and it follows that they could not be saved) The case of people who have no opportunity of knowing the Faith  is different( as Fr. Muller  who I linked to before clearly points out)
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #22 on: February 12, 2020, 03:37:40 PM »
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  • Whether one or several 19th century catechisms do or do not teach BOD proves nothing. What matters is the teaching of the Church(as explained by the Popes) Here is a catechism by Fr. Michael Muller( 19th century) which teaches a form of BOD( following St. Thomas) I take this position

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjop-O34MrnAhUblHIEHTqeDtYQFjAAegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcatholicism.org%2Fquestions-answers-salvation-muller.html&usg=AOvVaw1--0vqt6ZCiVFsJoEnsP_K

    Here are some more teachings of Fr. Michael Muller on BOD.  


    Prayer: The Key to Salvation – 1868 AD
    p.68

    Quote
    Any other loss can be made up for, but never that of prayer; if, on account of a delicate constitution, you cannot fast, you may give alms; have you no occasion to confess, you may obtain forgiveness of your sins by making an act of perfect contrition; nay, even the Sacrament of Baptism may be supplied by the real desire of it, and a perfect love of God, but no other means of salvation is left for him who does not love to practise prayer.

    https://archive.org/details/prayerkeyofsalva00mlrich



    Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine – 1875 AD
    p.295
    Quote
    Q. Can the baptism of water never be supplied?
    A. When it is impossible to have it, it may be supplied by the baptism of desire, or by the baptism of blood.
    Q. What is the baptism of desire?
    A. An earnest wish to receive baptism, or to do all that God requires of us for our salvation, together with a perfect contrition, or a perfect love of God.
    Q. What is the baptism of blood?
    A. Martyrdom for the sake of Christ.
    https://archive.org/details/familiarexplana00mlgoog



    God the Teacher of Mankind – 1880 AD

    Vol.I:  The Church and Her Enemies, p.285-286
    Quote
    19. Would it be right to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death is damned?
              No; because, in his last hour, such a one may receive the grace to die united to the Catholic Church.
              It is not our business to say whether this or that one who was not received into the Church before his death is damned.  What we condemn is the Protestant and the heathen system of religion, because they are utterly false; but we do not condemn any person - God alone is the judge of all.  It is quite certain, however, that, if any of those who are not received into the Church before their death, enter heaven, a lot which we earnestly desire and beg God to grant them, they can only do so after undergoing a radical and fundamental change before death launches them into eternity.  This is quite certain, for the reason, among others, that they are not one; and nothing is more indisputably certain than this, that there can be no division in heaven:  “God is not the God of dissension," says St. Paul, "but of peace."  He has never suffered the least interruption of union, even in the Church Militant no earth; most assuredly he will not tolerate it in the Church Triumphant.  God most certainly will remain what he is.  Non-Catholics, therefore, in order to enter heaven, must cease to be what they are, and become something which now they are not.
              God, in his infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may know and believe the necessary truths of salvation, be truly sorry for his sins, and die in such disposition of soul as is necessary to be saved.  Such a one, by an extraordinary grace of God, ceases to be what he was; he dies united, at least, to the soul of the Church, as theologians call it.
    https://archive.org/details/thechurchandhere00mulluoft

    Vol. V:  Dignity, Authority, and Duties of Parents, Ecclesiastical and Civil Powers – Their Enemy, p.460-464
    Quote
            Thus Jesus Christ has established the universal law that "whoever enters his Church by faith and baptism and lives up to her doctrine will be saved, and that whosoever wilfully rejects his Church will be condemned."  Jesus Christ, therefore, has taught and solemnly declared that there is no salvation out of his (the Roman Catholic) Church."
           Hence the heathen cannot be saved as heathen, nor the Jєω as Jєω, nor the Protestant as Protestant.  Every one, to be saved, must belong to the body or at least to the soul of the Church.  By the body of the Church is meant the society of the Catholic Church, and to be a real member of this society is to belong to the body of the Church.  By the soul of the Church is meant the firm and determined will of all good Catholics to believe and do all that God teaches them by his Church.  Anyone, therefore, who, without his fault, is not a Catholic, but observes, in good faith, the law of God as far as he knows it, and is, at the same time, determined to believe and do whatever God may require of him, possesses the spirit of the good Catholic, and is therefore said to belong to the soul of the Church.
           If he is a heathen, this good will alone, however, is not sufficient for his salvation; he must know at least the four great truths that every one must know in order to be saved, viz.:
           (1.) That there is but one living God, who is the Creator of heaven and earth; (2.) that there are three Persons in God:  the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost; that each of these Persons is God, and yet there is but one God; (3.) that the Son of God became man and died for our salvation; (4.) that God rewards in heaven those who keep his law, and punishes in hell those who transgress it grievously and die in their sins.
           On account of his good will, God, in his infinite mercy, will lead him to the knowledge of those truths either by natural or supernatural means.
          "Many of the Gentiles,” says St. Dionysius, "have been converted to the Lord by the ministry of angels."  Hence, if he believes those truths firmly and is quite willing to believe and do whatever else God has revealed for our salvation, he is disposed to receive sanctifying grace.  For such a good will supposes implicit faith in all that Christ has taught.  It supposes hope to obtain forgiveness through Christ’s merits, sorrow for sins, purpose of amendment of life and a resolution to keep the commandments; it supposes love of God; it supposes the implicit desire of baptism, and thus God does not fail to bestow sanctifying grace upon a soul thus disposed to receive it.  Thus that soul truly belongs to the Catholic Church; but should such a person come to the knowledge of the other truths taught by the Church, and reject them, he would be lost.
           We read in the tenth chapter of the Acts of the apostles that "there was a certain man in Cesarea, a Roman centurion, named Cornelius, a religious man, who feared God with all his house, gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always."  This good, God-fearing centurion had lived with the Jєωs in Cesarea, and learned from them the explicit faith in the one true God, and in the Redeemer.   He and his whole family observed the Law of God as far as they knew it; they prayed much and gave much alms.  Hence they were pleasing to God, like Job, who lived before Christ, and, having explicit faith in the true God and in the Redeemer, and living up to the law of nature and charity, was justified by God.  He belonged to the soul of the Church as long as he knew no more of the law of God.  But, as the Christian law, at the time of Cornelius, was already promulgated in Jerusalem and became more and more known in the neighboring cities, Cornelius was also one of those who had heard of it, as appears from the 22d verse of the same chapter.  From that time his ignorance of it ceased to be invincible.  He was obliged in conscience to acquire the explicit faith in Christ’s doctrine, and had he not complied with this duty he would have lost the grace of God.  But walking in sincerity of heart before the Lord, he was but too eager to learn all that God required him to believe and to do.  He most earnestly and perseveringly prayed to the Lord, and gave much alms to obtain this great grace.  The Lord heard his prayer, He sent an angel who said to him:  “Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thy alms are remembered in the sight of God. Send, therefore to Joppe, and call hither Simon, who is surnamed Peter.  He lodgeth in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the seaside.  He shall tell thee what thou must do.”
            Now, when St. Peter came to the house of Cornelius and learned how good the Lord had been to him and to his family, and how eager they were to learn from him what they must do to be saved, he exclaimed in amazement:  “In truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh justice, is acceptable to him; "that is to say, now I see that God is willing to bestow sanctifying grace upon all who are ready to believe in Christ and his doctrine, no matter whether they are Jєωs or heathens. Thereupon Peter instructed Cornelius and his family in the principal points of Christian doctrine, and had them baptized.  They were the first converts from heathenism to the Catholic Church.
           What we have just said of the heathen applies also to those Protestants who conscientiously observe the law of God as far as they know it and never had an opportunity to know better, but are resolved to believe and do all that Christ has revealed for our salvation.  To reward their good will, God will lead them so as to become acquainted with the truth of the Catholic religion, as we see in the examples of so many converts from Protestantism to the Catholic Church.
            The Rev. J. C. Russel, a convert from the Methodist Episcopal Sect to the Catholic faith, wrote in his letter to Father Zorn that he has been impelled to sever the dearest ties and to give up a fortune, in order to appease the voice of his conscience, and be numbered with the people of God. (Fort Mill, York Co., S. C.)
            Those, then, who wilfully refuse to learn the true religion, or wilfully refuse to embrace it after they become acquainted with it, will be damned on account of their unwillingness to do God’s will on earth.
            As to those who die in invincible ignorance of the true religion, if they are damned, they are not damned on account of this ignorance of the truth, as such invincible ignorance is no sin, but they are damned, as St. Paul tells us, because they committed grievous sins against the voice of God speaking to them through their conscience, on account of which they made themselves unworthy of the light of faith.

    Vol.VI: Grace and the Sacraments, p.218-222:

    Quote
            8. Can the baptism of water be ever supplied?
            When a person cannot receive the baptism of water, it may be supplied by the baptism of desire, or by the baptism of blood.
            Almighty God is goodness itself.  Hence he wishes that all men should be saved.  But, in order to be saved, it is necessary to pass, by means of baptism, from the state of sin to the state of grace.  Infants, therefore, who die unbaptized, can never enter the kingdom of heaven.  The case of grown persons is somewhat different; for, when grown persons cannot be actually baptized before death, then the baptism of water may be supplied by what is called the baptism of desire.
            There is an infidel.  He has become acquainted with the true faith.  He most earnestly desires baptism. But he cannot have any one to baptize him before he dies.  Now, is such a person lost because he dies without the baptism of water?  No; in this case, the person is said to be baptized in desire.

            9. What is the baptism of desire?
            An earnest wish to receive baptism, or to do all that God requires of us for our salvation, together with a perfect contrition, or a perfect love of God.
           An ardent desire of baptism, accompanied with faith in Jesus Christ and true repentance, is, with God, like the baptism of water.  In this case, the words of the Blessed Virgin are verified: “The Lord has filled the hungry with good things.” (Luke i, 35.) He bestows the good things of heaven upon those who die with the desire of baptism.  We read of a very interesting instance, in confirmation of this truth, in the Annals of the Propagation of the Faith:  It is related by M. Odin, missionary apostolic, and, subsequently, Archbishop of New Orleans, Louisiana:  “At some distance from our establishment at Barrens,” he says, “in Missouri, United States of America, there was a district inhabited by Protestants or infidels, with the exception of three or four Catholic families.  In 1834 we had the consolation of baptizing several persons there:  thus it was that the Lord was pleased to reward the kindness with which one of the most respectable inhabitants gave us hospitality every time we journeyed that way.  This worthy man, who was not a Catholic, had three little children, who received with eagerness the instructions we never failed to give them.  The tallest of the sons, only eight years old, especially showed such a particular relish for the word of God, that he learned by heart the entire catechism.  Evening and morning he addressed his little prayer to the good God; and if ever his little sister missed that holy exercise, he reproached her very seriously.  Things were at this point when the cholera broke out in the neighborhood.  Then this good little boy said simply to his mother:  ‘Mamma, the cholera is coming here:  oh! how glad I should be if the priests from the seminary came to baptize me!  That cruel disease will attack me, I am sure it will, and I shall die without baptism; then you will be sorry.'  Alas! the poor child predicted truly:  he was one of the first victims of the dreadful plague.   During the short moments of his cruel sufferings he incessantly asked for baptism, and even with his last sigh he kept repeating:  “Oh if any one would baptize me!  My God!  must I die without being baptized?'  The mother, thinking that she could not herself administer that sacrament, although there was evident necessity, was in the greatest trouble; neither would the child consent to receive it from the hands of a Protestant minister.  At last he died without having obtained his ardent wish.  As soon as I heard of the cholera being in that part of the country, I hastened thither; but I only reached there some hours after the child's funeral.  The family was plunged in the greatest affliction.  I consoled them as much as I could, and especially in relation to the eternal destiny of their poor little one, by explaining to them what the Church teaches us on the baptism of desire.  This consoling doctrine much assuaged their grief; after giving the other necessary instructions, I baptized the mother and the two young children, and, some days after, the father failed not to follow the example of his family.” (“Catholic Anecdotes,” p. 547.)
            Although it be true that the fathers of the Church have believed and taught that the baptism of desire may supply the baptism of water, yet this doctrine, as St. Augustine observes, should not make any one delay ordinary baptism when he is able to receive it; for, such a delay of baptism is always attended with great danger of salvation.

            10. What is the baptism of blood?
            Martyrdom for the sake of Christ.
           There is still another case in which a person may be justified and saved without having actually received the sacrament of baptism, viz.:  the case of a person suffering martyrdom for the faith before he has been able to receive baptism.  Martyrdom for the true faith has always been held by the Church to supply the sacrament of baptism.  Hence, in the case of martyrdom, a person has always been said to be baptized in his own blood.  Our divine Saviour assures us that “whosoever shall lose his life for his sake and the gospel, shall save it.” (Mark viii, 35.)  He, therefore, who dies for Jesus Christ, and for the sake of his religion, obtains a full remission of all his sins, and is immediately after death admitted into heaven.
           St. Emerentiana, while preparing to receive baptism, went to pray at the tomb of St. Agnes.  While praying there, she was stoned to death by the heathens.  Her parents were greatly afflicted, and almost inconsolable, when they learned that their daughter had died without having received baptism.  To console her parents, God permitted Emerentiana to appear to them in her heavenly glory, and to tell them not to be any longer afflicted on account of her salvation, “for,” said she, “I am in heaven with Jesus, my dear Saviour, whom I loved with my whole heart, when living on earth.” (Her Life, 23d Jan.)
           St. Genesius of Arles is also honored as a saint, because, for refusing to subscribe to a persecuting edict of Maximilian, he was put to death, though, at that time, he had not been baptized.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=KakKAQAAIAAJ


    Vol.VIII: The Sacraments of The Holy Eucharist and Penance, p.336:

    Quote
    As baptism, then, is necessary to cleanse us from original sin, so, in like manner, is the Sacrament of Penance necessary to blot out the sins committed after baptism.  As no one can enter the kingdom of heaven who has not received holy baptism either in reality or desire, so no one can be saved when he has lost his baptismal innocence, without the actual reception of the Sacrament of Penance, or, if that be impossible, at least the implicit desire of this sacrament, joined to perfect contrition.
    p.351:

    Quote
    Water is necessary for baptism; but, when water cannot be had, the want may be supplied by the baptism of desire, or by the baptism of blood; but, if contrition is wanting, its lack cannot he supplied by anything whatever. No contrition—no pardon!

    https://books.google.com/books?id=hLwKAQAAIAAJ


    Vol.IX: Sacramentals, Prayer, Vices and Virtues; Christian Perfection, Etc., p.62:

    Quote
    Every other loss may be repaired, but the loss of prayer never.  If, on the account of delicate constitution, we cannot fast, we may give alms; if we have no opportunity to confess our sins, we may obtain the forgiveness of them by an act of perfect contrition; nay, even baptism itself may sometimes be supplied by an earnest desire for this sacrament, accompanied by an ardent love of God.  But as for him who neglects to practise prayer, there is no other means of salvation left.
    https://archive.org/details/GodTheTeacherOfMankindV9







    Offline Banezian

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #23 on: February 12, 2020, 03:57:56 PM »
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  • Here are some more teachings of Fr. Michael Muller on BOD.  


    Prayer: The Key to Salvation – 1868 AD
    p.68

    https://archive.org/details/prayerkeyofsalva00mlrich



    Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine – 1875 AD
    p.295https://archive.org/details/familiarexplana00mlgoog



    God the Teacher of Mankind – 1880 AD

    Vol.I:  The Church and Her Enemies, p.285-286https://archive.org/details/thechurchandhere00mulluoft

    Vol. V:  Dignity, Authority, and Duties of Parents, Ecclesiastical and Civil Powers – Their Enemy, p.460-464
    Vol.VI: Grace and the Sacraments, p.218-222:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=KakKAQAAIAAJ


    Vol.VIII: The Sacraments of The Holy Eucharist and Penance, p.336:
    p.351:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=hLwKAQAAIAAJ


    Vol.IX: Sacramentals, Prayer, Vices and Virtues; Christian Perfection, Etc., p.62:
    https://archive.org/details/GodTheTeacherOfMankindV9
    Yes, I take this position, and I don’t understand why Sanborn accuses Fr. Muller of denying BOD. He clearly does not deny it
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #24 on: February 12, 2020, 04:27:27 PM »
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  • Yes, I take this position, and I don’t understand why Sanborn accuses Fr. Muller of denying BOD. He clearly does not deny it

    Well, when I was at STAS, a professor there taught the majority opinion, that explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity were required fro salvation.  Bishop Williamson, the Rector there, admonished the professor that it was "close to Feeneyism".  Perhaps there was a strong pro-EENS statement somewhere in Father Muller that Bishop Sanborn interpreted as Feeneyism.  Those with lax interpretations of EENS tend to see "Feeneyites" behind every bush.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #25 on: February 13, 2020, 05:04:23 AM »
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  • Quote
    19. Would it be right to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death is damned?
              No; because, in his last hour, such a one may receive the grace to die united to the Catholic Church.
              It is not our business to say whether this or that one who was not received into the Church before his death is damned.  What we condemn is the Protestant and the heathen system of religion, because they are utterly false; but we do not condemn any person - God alone is the judge of all.


    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

     
    "It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #26 on: February 13, 2020, 05:20:04 AM »
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  • That thread about Garrigou-Lagrange quotes a passage where he is clearly speculating. Here is what  Garrigou says in another placecwhen commenting on the Summa ( in Latin as im sure you can read it and I don’t have time translate at the moment)
    “Hereticus pertinax est, quoad veritates supernaturales quas retinet, sicut philosophus scepticus, qui negat valorem ontologicuм principii contradictionis et proinde ipsius rationis, erga veritates naturales quas retinere vult ; non potest amplius eas retinere propter motivum necessarium, sed solum propter aliquod motivum contingens, fundans opinionem tantum.…
    Objectio : Haereticus hunc articulum negat, non quia credit Deum fallibilem in revelando, sed quia non apprehendit hunc articulum ut revelatum. Alios autem articulos tenet, quia apprehendit illos ut revelatos. Unde non recedit ab auctoritate Dei revelantis, sed solum a propositione Ecclesiae, et alios articulos tenet fide infusa…
    ® : Haec omnia essent vera, si sola inspiratio privata vel examen privatum esset proxima regula fidei, sed Christus voluit et nobis revelavit Ecclesiam esse proximam fidei regulam ; et ideo ille qui hanc revelationem cognoscens, recedit pertinaciter ab Ecclesia, non solum recedit a conditione sine qua non fidei catholicae, sed recedit ab ipso motivo formali ipsius fidei infusae, etiam ut infusa est, et non solum ut catholica est.”
    He is clear that the proximate rule of faith is the proposition of the Church and so a Protestant ( or any 9ther pertinacious heretic) who rejects that does not have the faith.( and it follows that they could not be saved) The case of people who have no opportunity of knowing the Faith  is different( as Fr. Muller  who I linked to before clearly points out)
    Great, instead of following the clear dogmas on EENS, now we are going to follow Garrigou LaGrange's unclear interpretation, interpreted by Banezian because he says Ladislaus understands it wrong, according to Banezian (and Banezian is going to write it in Latin, so nobody understands what he is saying ). Insanity!

    No, I'll stick with the clear dogmatic infallible Council of Florence. If these dogmas do not mean what they CLEARLY say, then words have no meaning whatsoever:


    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”





    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #27 on: February 13, 2020, 01:25:02 PM »
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  • One of the quotes from mueller above says that at a minimum a soul could receive BOD by desiring to do whatever God commands for salvation.  At present that’s my position too but the “strict EENS” camp would disagree 

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #28 on: February 13, 2020, 01:56:26 PM »
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  • One of the quotes from mueller above says that at a minimum a soul could receive BOD by desiring to do whatever God commands for salvation.  At present that’s my position too but the “strict EENS” camp would disagree
    Not sure what the strict EENS camp is, but the literal EENS camp finds that one of the commands God gave for salvation says that unless a man is baptized by water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Perhaps someone should find  where and under what circuмstances that command gets rescinded. After all, that is what is really needed for salvation via a BOD.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: 19th Century Catechisms, BOD, BOB, Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #29 on: February 13, 2020, 02:26:41 PM »
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  • Not sure what the strict EENS camp is, but the literal EENS camp 
    Touche, very good, duly noted "Literal EENSers". 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24