'...this anti Protestant Catholicism.'

I would like to examine this statement in a little greater detail.  First, let's turn the phrase around a little: Can there be a 'pro-Protestant' Catholicism?


'...that I was charged and convicted of not being the same kind of Catholic that you are.'

Is there more than one kind of Catholic?


'Still you can't have it both ways, Gilbert,...'

I'm not trying to have anything 'both ways'.  I am simply trying to speak the Catholic truth.


'I know jolly well that you wouldn't stand there and pray for a miracle while someone butchered your daughter, so don't recommend that I confine my actions to prayer and converting my neighbor while someone butchers my son.'

It would truly depend on what I was capable of doing at the time of this hypothetical butchering.  If I was physically capable of stopping the butchery, I would.  In the process, I pray that I would not betray the Faith in so doing.

But, that begs the question: What are we truly capable of doing to stop the war?  Perhaps I am being overly pessimistic, but I have concluded that 'the people' do _not_ control the policies of this country's government.  You can try to affect the policy decisions of this country's government, but I doubt you will even be heard.  Still, I understand why you would try.

I know you are emotionally involved in this particular subject because your son's life is at stake.  However, we should also put the matter into perspective.  Was your son a volunteer, or was he drafted?  Who are the aggressors in this conflict?  Are the Iraqis right in resisting us?

These academic questions are of no comfort when our own flesh and blood are at risk, I know.  But, it is the government, the principles upon which it was founded, and its anti-Catholic orientation that created the conditions for our family members and fellow countrymen to be placed in harm's way to begin with.

And, dont think I am a pacifist.  I am not necessarily pacifistic.  It is just that if we are going to fight a war, I would prefer it to be a Just War.


'I'll grant you that the way I advocate is not the perfect way, but it just might keep us alive long enough to attain the perfect way.'

There is no 'perfect way' if you mean one that will not involve sacrifice.  Nothing that is worthwhile comes at no price.  Our Lord suffered pain, humiliation, and death to redeem us our sins.  Yet, we expect somehow that we are entitled to a cake-walk while trying to fix things?

I think I understand by what you posted earlier that you advocate participating in non-Catholic political causes or programmes.  I say to you that your efforts will be in vain.  We must get the Church to speak definitively on the great moral and ethical issues of our time.  For that to occur, we must pray for the Pope.  We should also focus our efforts on conversion.


'What hubris suggests that God will perform a miracle for people who won't themselves step into the breach?'

Again, I say to you that we are defining 'the breach' differently.  'The breach' is sticking up for Our Lord; not dwelling on this-or-that worldly concern.  Do you think God is going to intervene into the affairs of men -- to their benefit -- who do not believe in Him?  God will not perform miracles that will help unbelievers.


'And saving lives often means fighting literally. Unless you have found a way to convert corpses, this is what it comes down to.'

So, whom would you fight?  How?  And what would your purpose be?

WRT converting corpses...  That is why the Faith is so important to begin with.  Converting a corpse is, of course, an exercise in futility.  God forbid something happen to your son, but if he is Catholic and died in a state of sanctifying grace, certainly it should be *some* consolation to you that he will be in heaven?

Let me ask you: would you prefer a live heretic to a dead saint?  I'm a parent, too, and that is a tough question to answer.  Theoretically, I of course would prefer sainthood for my children, rather than damnation.  Practically, the human element kicks in and you want to preserve life above all else.

Perhaps an anecdote will help.  Princess Blanche of Castile, who became Queen to King Louis VIII of France was a very devout and pious woman.  She acted as regent during the minority of her son, the future King Louis IX.  One of the famous sentiments she instilled in him came from this quote of hers:

'Never forget that sin is the only great evil in the world. No mother could love her son more than I love you. But I would rather see you lying dead at my feet than know that you had offended God by one mortal sin.'

I'm not suggesting your son is a heretic, nor would I presume to sit in judgement of him.  Let me put it to you this way.  Before I went to Iraq, I went to Confession and took Communion knowing that it might be the last time I would do so.  I was comforted by the thought that if I died, I would have died after having taken the Sacraments.  Believe it or not, this carried my wife and me through the entire time I was gone.  We were at peace.

Now, neither of us are believers in the war or its purposes.  That is a separate matter altogether.  What we did believe in is that if I died in battle, I had at least as good a chance as any of going to heaven.


'The very foundation of Christianity is laying down our lives for others.'

Yes, but dont you see that Christ didnt protest His martyrdom?  He accepted it.


'And Jesus didn't mean we were to die of a burst blood vessel praying for God to do what we could do ourselves (although fervent prayer is what moves heaven).'

I understand your exaggeration, but it is still absurd.  Our Lord did indeed intend for us to *pray*.

 
'I will mark your brother in my "especialies", and I do thank you for your prayers.'

Thank you.


'I wish the whole world would pray and take action.'

As do I.  But remember that praying *IS* taking action.  This is a *spiritual* battle every bit as much, and I would argue moreso, as it is a physical one.


'...but I'm not much comforted that his chaplain is probably NO.  So there is that to be lived with, too.  They used to give the soldiers and sailors Bibles.  Now they persecute the chaplains for using Jesus' name.  It seems to me that satan has managed to put every sort of obstacle between God and His children.'

This is perhaps where the rendering unto Caesar stops and the rendering unto God begins.  If the soldiers and sailors dont have Bibles and cannot hear their chaplains speak of Our Lord, then they have to make their own preparations and pray to Him themselves.  While I was gone, I had only the N.O. Mass, so I didnt go to it.  I read my missal, prayed the Rosary, and made acts of perfect contrition when it occurred to me that I should do so.

'Quit that, Gilbert. This is part of what got us into trouble in the first place. When I said "laying down our lives" it leaves no room for reading in "protest".'

I will not 'quit that', Trinity.  What you imply, in stating 'laying down our lives', in the context in which you have made other statements, is that you would take up arms (i.e. rebel) against what you consider to be oppression, etc.  If I am wrong, please disabuse me now and let me know that was not your meaning.


'When I said "burst a blood vessel praying" it meant that it is not the way we are to lay down our lives, die.'

I can see that is what you mean.  Again, what do you mean exactly?  Are you advocating violently overthrowing the government?  Are you advocating martyrdom?  What do you mean, exactly, by 'laying down our lives'?


'And it certainly does not disqualify praying, which I believe I have made perfectly clear that I do and hold to as our first order of business. I can't keep clarifying what is already clear. Set your thoughts and agendas aside long enough to really listen (read).'

I have no other thoughts or agendas than to see and share Catholic truth.  Which is why I joined this forum.

I have read what you have posted and what you imply is some form of rebellion.  If that is in fact the case, then I disagree.


'But while prayer should be our first order of business, it is not necessarily our only order of business. Face it, even if you were hog tied while your daughter was butchered, you would be struggling to get to her and stop the butcher. You would not just sit there and say "this is hopeless, I'll just sit here and pray."'

I have already conceded that I would try to save my daughter's life.  But, I also implied that I would hope that my actions would be in accordance with God's will.  For instance, what if God Himself demanded the sacrifice of my child?  I dont believe that is a situation without precedent.


'Let's cut this to the chase. I've already buried one son. He was only four days old and I had made certain that he was baptized. I made the best act of acceptance I was capable of when I put on his tombstone, "Blessed be the Name of the Lord". Even still I dreamt for six weeks that I was able to rescue him. I would hear him crying and I would find a way every time. It actually took two years before I was able to rejoice that he is in heaven. You can't know the ins and outs of grief until you've been there--all the "what ifs" and "if onlys".'

My wife had the misfortune of suffering the miscarriage of what would've been our second child (a daughter).  We were unable to baptise the remains so we dont know where that child's soul went.  We did the whole 'what if' for a long time.

So, please dont presume to lecture me on loss or imply that I dont know what it means.  You are not the only person to have ever lost a child.  Moreover, using your grief for that child as a shield to hide behind to pursue a private agenda is pretty disingenuous.


'I've thought of all this in terms of Damien, not once, but twice now. Like you said, please God it doesn't happen to him. And the same for your brother. But, Gilbert, I guarantee you that if your brother is killed over there, you will play "what if" and "if only", and that's the cruelest part of such a death.'

That is only human to do so.  I would also like to think that I would try to understand it as God's will.  I'm not saying that I could, but that I would.


'Because you will know then that you might have done something to change that and that you did nothing.'

My brother is a rational man who is capable of making his own choices.  I didnt persuade him against going to Iraq, nor would I have tried.  The only thing I did was offer him my prayers for his safety and, should he die, for God to have mercy on his soul.


'I cannot for the life of me figure out why people give up without even trying.'

Trinity, _trying_what_?  What, exactly, are you advocating?  Peaceful protest?  Political activism?  Revolution?  The only thing you've shown (that I've seen) is a list of goals put forward by some (non-Catholic) internet anarchist in another thread.  In other words, you are proposing a solution that denies God.

This is not some theoretical thought-experiment.  What I am trying to get through to you is that oecuмenical programmes _will_not_work_.  They will only make things worse.


'It is only YOUR life that you have to lay down, not other people's lives.  How can you KNOW that it can't be done if you don't even try???'

If those other people were drafted against their will to fight in a war that was not a Just War, then a moral case could be made for their refusal to serve.  But we're not talking about that.  We're talking about men who have chosen this course in life: paid, professional soldiers.

So, unless your son was sent to Iraq against his will (and there has been no draft yet, as far as I know), he is there because he has chosen to serve and that is where his service has sent him.  He is fulfilling his enlistment contract or his oath of office.

Now, if you dont like the war, then you would be within your rights to try to petition your Representative, or Senator, or the President himself to withdraw from Iraq.  You could try to speak to others to do so and try to persuade them to your point of view.  When your son returns, you could encourage him to give up military life and pursue some other vocation.  You could encourage others to do the same.

But these are merely treatments of the symptoms, and not cures for the cause.  The _cause_ of our military involvement in Iraq is directly related to the fact that our country is not Catholic.  If you would truly end this sort of military adventurism, then converting our countrymen would be your primary, if not sole, concern.

'Gilbert, let's just agree to disagree.'

That is fine, but I would not have you mischaracterise my position.


'What you see as rebellion, I see as using the system the way it was meant to be used. You know, that's kind of like usingthe medical field to cure you of something rather than considering it a God given affliction that you shouldn't rebel against.'

You are mixing apples and oranges.


'I'm for healing in the manners which are prescribed. This country needs healing of a lot of bad laws and corrupt politicians and there are legally laid down methods for doing it.'

As am I.  Moreover, I am glad to know that you advocate legal means.  However, I say again that these things will not be of lasting value so long as our country remains anti-Catholic.


'Be satisfied that is the kind of Catholic (or uncatholic) person I am. I am unrepentent and will continue to be so, as I see that you will continue in your beliefs. Let God be the judge, and I will turn to people who don't think they need a Divine mandate for every move they make.'

Again, with the mischaracterisations.  I never said or implied that one needs a Divine mandate for every move one makes.  I am saying that one must understand that all authority comes from God and act in accordance with Catholic Tradition.