Author Topic: "Greek Gifts" I II  (Read 830 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John Grace

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5521
  • Reputation: +120/-6
  • Gender: Male
"Greek Gifts" I II
« on: August 27, 2011, 04:14:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Both can be viewed also on this thread.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=15655
    Quote
    ELEISON  COMMENTS  CCXIV  (Aug. 20, 2011) : "GREEK  GIFTS"  --  I

    On September 14 in a few weeks'  time is due to take place in Rome, so we are told, a meeting of Cardinal Levada and Roman officials with the Superior General of the Society of St Pius X and his two Assistants. Catholics who appreciate all that Archbishop Lefebvre and his Society have been given to do over the last 40 years in defence of the Faith need to be forewarned, because that Faith is ever more in danger, and "Forewarned is forearmed", especially by prayer.

    It was Cardinal Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who was entrusted two years ago with overseeing the doctrinal Discussions that ran from the autumn of 2009 to April of this year, between Rome and the SSPX. It was Rome that invited the SSPX to this meeting. It seems reasonable to anticipate that the Romans on September 14 will be laying down as to future relations with the SSPX their decision emerging from the Discussions.

    Now by all accounts the Discussions made clear that no doctrinal agreement is possible between the SSPX as cleaving to the age-old Church doctrine, and today's Rome as set upon the  Conciliar teaching of the Newchurch, and moreover persevering in this disorientation, as is clear from the Newbeatification of John-Paul II in May and from Assisi III due to happen this coming October. So the situation coming out of the Discussions remains exactly where it was two years ago, going into the Discussions: on the one hand, for the glory of God and for the salvation of souls, the SSPX strives to help Rome back to the true Catholic Faith, whilst for the glory of modern man and for the satisfaction of his ignoble media (as in January and February of 2009), Conciliar Rome is doing all within its power to induce the SSPX to blend into the mind- and soul-rotting ecumenism of the Newfaith.

    What then can we imagine Rome imposing on September 14 ?  Either carrot or stick, more probably, as adjusted by their expertise in its reading of the current state of mind within the SSPX, both. The stick could be a threat of total "excommunication" for the SSPX, once and for all. But who that has the Catholic Faith could be scared by such a threat ?  When Archbishop Lefebvre was threatened for the first time with "excommunication" from the Newchurch, we remember his reply: "How can I be put out of a 'church' to which I have never belonged ?"

    On the other hand the cleverest carrot from Rome could be the apparently irresistible offer of "full communion with Rome" on the SSPX's own terms. Only there might be hidden away a little clause that would stipulate that future SSPX Superiors and Bishops might be chosen by a joint committee of Rome and the SSPX with the merest majority of members being -- Romans. After all, would the SSPX be wanting to come under Rome, or not ?  "Make up your minds !" will be their reasonable demand, as Cardinal Ratzinger reportedly cried out in 2001.

    Clear minds recall the saying of the wise -- but scorned -- Trojan who did not want the Greeks' Horse to be brought into Troy: "Howsoever it be, I fear the Greeks, even when they bear gifts." But the Trojan Horse was brought in. We all know what happened to Troy.                                                      

    Kyrie eleison


    Quote
    ELEISON  COMMENTS  CCXV (Aug.27, 2011) :  "GREEK  GIFTS" - II

    "But, your Excellency, how could you in last week's "Eleison Comments" (214) call in question, as you did, the sincerity and good will of the Roman officials who are only seeking to put an end to the alienation of the Society of St Pius X from the mainstream Church ?  You compared them to the Greeks deliberately deceiving the Trojans by means of the Trojan Horse. But all they want is to overcome the long and hurtful division between Catholics of Tradition and Church Authority !"

    Answer, one need not at all call in question these Romans' sincerity and good will. There, in fact, is the problem !  After nearly 500 years of Protestantism and Liberalism our age is so confused and perverse that the world is now full of people doing wrong even while being convinced that they are doing right. And the more convinced such people are that they are doing right, the more dangerous they can be, because with all the more force of subjective sincerity and good intentions they push towards doing objective wrong, and they pull others with them. The more sincerely today's Romans are convinced of the rightness of their Newchurch, the more efficaciously they will destroy the true Church.

    "But, your Excellency, God alone judges their intentions !"

    When it comes to defending the Faith, subjective intentions are comparatively unimportant. If Romans mean well in trying to pull the SSPX into the mainstream Church, I may like them personally but I will hate their errors. If they do not mean well because they know that they are trying to destroy the true Faith, than I shall not like them and I will just the same hate their errors.  Their being likeable or not, or liked by me or not, is of little or no importance compared with those errors by which they are, objectively, destroying the Church.

    When likeable men are peddling horrible errors, it is all too easy either to say that the errors are as likeable as the men, in which case the men incline us to liberalism, or to say that the men are as horrible as their errors, in which case the errors of the Conciliar Popes incline us to sedevacantism. But the reality today is that it has never been easier in all the history of mankind for men to be likeable at the same time as their errors are horrible. Such is our age. This situation could get worse only under the Antichrist, but it is his forerunners that are already driving the world to its ruin.

    In the meantime the Romans who on September 14 are due to meet with the leaders of the SSPX are sure to be convinced of the rightness of the Newchurch as reshaped by Vatican II, in which case they are in grave error, but they may be chosen for their personal charm, to help draw the SSPX towards official Rome. Then be not surprised, dear readers, if the SSPX will be made to seem as though it is spurning Rome's noble offers and good intentions, but that will not be the case. Any spurning by the SSPX will only be of horrible errors. Long live true Rome !  Long live sweet Romans ! But perish their errors !

    "Your Excellency, what is their essential error ?"

    Putting man in the place of God. They are sliding into apostasy, and taking numberless souls with them.  

    Kyrie eleison.


    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4514
    • Reputation: +3876/-348
    • Gender: Male
    "Greek Gifts" I II
    « Reply #1 on: August 27, 2011, 06:43:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Bishop Williamson
    Putting man in the place of God. They are sliding into apostasy, and taking numberless souls with them.


    Before I really pay much attention to what Bishop Williamson says, I'd like him to specifically spell out precisely when the "sliding into apostasy" becomes apostasy.

    You see, it seems to me that it already has become apostasy, which is why I cannot accept Benedict 16 as pope of the Roman Catholic Church since it would seem to me that the pope of that Church must, himself, be a Catholic.

    So much of the rhetoric of the SSPX bishops points an accusing finger claiming that the Conciliar church has "almost" lost the faith; they are "almost" Protestants; they are "almost" heretics and apostates.  I want to know what declaration or what action they will accept as a line of demarcation.  

    If the Conciliar authorities can not be thought apostates, then how is taking souls with them a problem?



    Offline LordPhan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1171
    • Reputation: +826/-0
    • Gender: Male
    "Greek Gifts" I II
    « Reply #2 on: August 27, 2011, 06:59:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: TKGS

    If the Conciliar authorities can not be thought apostates, then how is taking souls with them a problem?



     Now you're far passed Sede'ism, you now believe that all Pope's go to heaven? The Borgia Pope was infamously evil, yet he was still Pope, and he took many people to hell with him.

    Apostate means losing ALL sense of Christianity.

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +120/-6
    • Gender: Male
    "Greek Gifts" I II
    « Reply #3 on: September 03, 2011, 12:57:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    `ELEISON  COMMENTS  CCXVI  (Sept.3, 2011) :  "GREEK  GIFTS"  --  III.
     
    Speculation is only speculation. Journalists are only journalists. But an Italian journalist claimed last month that he had the authority of a"Vatican insider" for writing that the Sept 14 meeting between Roman officials and the Superior General of the Society of St Pius X with his two Assistants may discuss a possible canonical regularization of the SSPX. Here is a summary of Andrea Tornielli's main points (see  http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/lefebvriani-vaticano-tradizione-fellay-7423/ ) :--
     
    The Vatican officials will submit to the SSPX  ( 1 ) a clarification of Benedict XVI's "hermeneutic of continuity" to show how it is the more authentic interpretation of the texts of Vatican II.  "Only if", says Tornielli, this clarification overcomes the doctrinal difficulties will there then be presented  (2)  a solution to the canonical irregularity in which the SSPX bishops and priests still find themselves: an Ordinariat such as was given to the Anglicans in May, whereby the SSPX would depend directly on the Holy See through the Ecclesia Dei Commission. This arrangement would enable the SSPX to "retain its characteristics without having to answer to the diocesan bishops". But  (3)  any such agreement is not certain because "within the SSPX co-exist different sensitivities".
     
    From everything we know in public about Vatican-SSPX relations, Tornielli's forecast for the Sept 14 meeting seems highly probable. But each of his three main points deserves comment:--
     
    Firstly, as to the doctrinal gulf between today's Vatican and Archbishop Lefebvre's SSPX, it cannot be said that Benedict XVI's "hermeneutic of continuity" is a solution (see EC 208-211). If Tornielli is right, it will be interesting (not edifying) to see how Rome tries once more to prove that 2+2 can be 4 or 5, 5 or 4. Catholic doctrine is as rigid, if not always as clear to us human beings, as 2+2=4.
     
    Secondly, as to the canonical arrangement evoked by Tornielli, if - unimaginably - the SSPX were to accept any kind of doctrinal compromise, then in no way could the SSPX both come under the present Holy See (2+2=4 or 5), and still "retain its characteristics" (based on 2+2= exclusively 4). The practical agreement would exercise a constant and finally irresistible pressure to make Catholic doctrine no longer exclusive but inclusive of error, which would be to adopt the Freemasons' ideology and to abandon the very reason for existing of Archbishop Lefebvre's SSPX.
     
    And thirdly, Tornielli may well be right that an agreement is not certain, but he and his "Vatican insider" are absolutely wrong if either of them thinks that the problem is one of "different sensitivities". Sensitivities are subjective. The central problem between the Vatican and Archbishop Lefebvre's SSPX is as objective as 2+2=4. At no point in time, reaching backwards or forwards into eternity, on no planet or star created or creatable, can 2+2 ever be anything other than, exclusively, four.
     
    When all Archbishop Lefebvre's efforts had failed in the negotiations of May 1988 to obtain from then Cardinal Ratzinger a secure place for the Faith within the mainstream Church, he said some famous words : "Your Eminence, even were you to give us everything we wanted, still we would have to refuse, because we are working to christianise society, whereas you are working to de-christianise it.  Collaboration between us is not possible."                                                            
     
    Kyrie eleison.

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16