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Author Topic: Wrong wine, Mass invalid  (Read 1367 times)

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Offline Miseremini

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Wrong wine, Mass invalid
« on: June 07, 2023, 10:17:19 PM »
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  • All the intentions at said Masses were unfulfilled.  :facepalm:
    This could be the tip of the iceberg.
    First we had the wrong words for baptism a little while ago, now the wrong wine.
    I've often wondered about the hosts as they neither look nor feel like the hosts of my youth that dissolved almost on contact.


    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archdiocese-of-kansas-city-warns-masses-at-3-parishes-may-have-been-invalid-for-years-due-to-wrong-wine/?utm_source=digest-catholic-2023-06-07&utm_medium=email
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #1 on: June 07, 2023, 10:40:18 PM »
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  • Just another day in the Bogus Ordo...


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #2 on: June 07, 2023, 11:07:58 PM »
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  • Just another day in the Bogus Ordo...
    I agree but what about the traditional priests and the resistance priests?  How many more are not following the rules for matter either through preference or ignorance?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #3 on: June 08, 2023, 12:46:21 AM »
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  • I agree but what about the traditional priests and the resistance priests?  How many more are not following the rules for matter either through preference or ignorance?
    A lot before Vatican II as well. It was the Mass for most Latin-Rite Catholics until 1964, and many places did not follow the rules.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Offline angelusmaria

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #4 on: June 08, 2023, 02:10:46 AM »
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  • Years ago I knew a Novus Ordo priest who said he had permission to use mustum as wine, due to his sensitivity to alcohol.  Ratzinger was cited.  I don't think I have ever heard of a Traditional priest ever using mustum; seems like invalid matter.
    please pray for me


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #5 on: June 08, 2023, 03:14:11 AM »
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  • Years ago I knew a Novus Ordo priest who said he had permission to use mustum as wine, due to his sensitivity to alcohol.  Ratzinger was cited.  I don't think I have ever heard of a Traditional priest ever using mustum; seems like invalid matter.

    I knew one Traditional priest who used mustum, but I too am skeptical.  This priest was a former alcoholic.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #6 on: June 08, 2023, 05:06:32 AM »
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  • First we had the wrong words for baptism a little while ago, now the wrong wine.
    I've often wondered about the hosts as they neither look nor feel like the hosts of my youth that dissolved almost on contact.


    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archdiocese-of-kansas-city-warns-masses-at-3-parishes-may-have-been-invalid-for-years-due-to-wrong-wine/?utm_source=digest-catholic-2023-06-07&utm_medium=email

    For those who deny BOD, it would be impossible for those people who were invalidly baptized to be saved. Unbeknownst to them they would be destined to Hell. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #7 on: June 08, 2023, 06:01:11 AM »
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  • For those who deny BOD, it would be impossible for those people who were invalidly baptized to be saved. Unbeknownst to them they would be destined to Hell.

    And God allows some souls to be born among animists also.  It's all determined by God's Providence.  This almost sounds quasi-Pelagian.  God is not bound by circuмstances or "impossible" but governs and guides all things.

    And God can easily fix the situation also:
    Quote
    “When Father Claver arrived at her deathbed, Augustina lay cold to the touch, her body already being prepared for burial.  He prayed at her bedside for one hour, when suddenly the woman sat up, vomited a pool of blood, and declared upon being questioned by those in attendance: ‘I have come from journeying along a long road.  After I had gone a long way down it, I met a white man of great beauty who stood before me and said: Stop!  You can go no further.’… On hearing this, Father Claver cleared the room and prepared to hear her Confession, thinking she was in need of absolution for some sin she may have forgotten.  But in the course of the ritual, St. Peter Claver was inspired to realize that she had never been baptized.  He cut short her confession and declined to give her absolution, calling instead for water with which to baptize her.  Augustina’s master insisted that she could not possibly need baptism since she had been in his employ for twenty years and had never failed to go to Mass, Confession, and Communion all that time.  Nevertheless, Father Claver insisted on baptizing her, after which Augustina died again joyfully and peacefully in the presence of the whole family.”



    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #8 on: June 08, 2023, 06:08:31 AM »
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  • And God allows some souls to be born among animists also.  It's all determined by God's Providence.  This almost sounds quasi-Pelagian.  God is not bound by circuмstances or "impossible" but governs and guides all things.

    And God can easily fix the situation also:
    True, and there are babies who die before baptism and are lost. To me it seems that the difference is a person attaining the use of reason is significant in this discussion. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #9 on: June 08, 2023, 07:51:11 AM »
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  • True, and there are babies who die before baptism and are lost. To me it seems that the difference is a person attaining the use of reason is significant in this discussion.

    And God allows some souls to grow up (to the age of reason) and then die among pagans in the jungle, whereas others are born into good Catholic families.  We don't know why God allows things, and we don't do theology based on our assessment of "that would be unfair".

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #10 on: June 08, 2023, 08:11:18 AM »
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  • Years ago I knew a Novus Ordo priest who said he had permission to use mustum as wine, due to his sensitivity to alcohol.  Ratzinger was cited.  I don't think I have ever heard of a Traditional priest ever using mustum; seems like invalid matter.
    My understanding is that mustum is indeed considered true wine, in that fermentation theoretically begins the moment the grapes are crushed, and the process of creating alcohol follows soon afterwards.  If you set it aside for a day or two, there would already be a trace amount of alcohol, though nothing that could cause an alcoholic problems, similar to the way orange juice contains alcohol, but you'd have to drink several gallons of it to feel any effect.  


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #11 on: June 08, 2023, 08:23:00 AM »
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  • And God allows some souls to grow up (to the age of reason) and then die among pagans in the jungle, whereas others are born into good Catholic families.  We don't know why God allows things, and we don't do theology based on our assessment of "that would be unfair".

    Very true, and I would probably agree with your position if it wasn’t for the fact that BOD was taught exclusively and explicitly for the past several centuries by basically everyone in the Church.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #12 on: June 08, 2023, 08:31:52 AM »
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  • All the intentions at said Masses were unfulfilled.  :facepalm:
    This could be the tip of the iceberg.
    First we had the wrong words for baptism a little while ago, now the wrong wine.
    I've often wondered about the hosts as they neither look nor feel like the hosts of my youth that dissolved almost on contact.


    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archdiocese-of-kansas-city-warns-masses-at-3-parishes-may-have-been-invalid-for-years-due-to-wrong-wine/?utm_source=digest-catholic-2023-06-07&utm_medium=email
    If dioceses made deal with satanic global organization, then the hosts might have unholy communion merna shot. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #13 on: June 08, 2023, 09:06:35 AM »
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  • Very true, and I would probably agree with your position if it wasn’t for the fact that BOD was taught exclusively and explicitly for the past several centuries by basically everyone in the Church.

    And, at the same time, the requirement for explicit faith in Christ and the Holy Trinity was taught exclusively and explicitly for 1500 years before a Franciscan and Jesuit decided to float Rewarder God theory, and now the same Trad bishops/priests who are most hostile to "Feeneyism" almost universally reject it.  It was also upheld by the Holy Office after the invention of Rewarder God theory.  Similarly, it was exclusively and explicitly taught for about 700 years, following St. Augustine, that infants who die unbaptized suffer (albeit mildly) in Hell, until Abelard first questioned it, St. Thomas also approved it, and the Church ended up endorsing the notion of Limbo.  Vatican II was accepted by all theologians as well.  Msgr. Fenton explicitly rejects what i have termed "Cekadism," some mythical "infallibility of theological consensus" that he invented at some point.

    Nor has anyone demonstrated that BoD is anything more than theological speculation.  There are two ways to demonstrate that something has been revealed (apart from explicit revelation in Sacred Scripture):

    1) Unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers.  But 5-6 Fathers rejected BoD outright, 1 (St. Augustine) tentatively floated it as speculation but then retracted it, and 1 (St. Ambrose) IMO did not hold BoD in the sense that it can save, holding that such a one would be "washed but not crowned."  So the majority of Fathers rejected BoD.

    2) Theological (syllogistic) demonstration that it flows logically and necessarily from Revealed premises.  This has never been done.  Mostly there are appeals to "Augustine and Ambrose", St. Robert holds that it "would seem too harsh", and the vast majority of theologians just say, "Yep.  BoD."  St. Thomas made the only attempt I know of, but it amounted to more of an explanation of how it might work rather than a proof that it exists.  He explained that Sacraments have a visible and an invisible aspect to them, and that BoD invisibly provides the benefits of Baptism.  Just because some graces of the Sacraments CAN be provided outside the Sacrament, it's also true that others cannot.  In fact, the ones that cannot are the ones that tend to confer a Sacramental character (Holy Orders, Confirmation).  But so does Baptism.  So the closest thing to actual theological reasoning I've ever seen falls short of actually proving BoD.

    Consequently, I hold that BoD not only has never been defined, but that it's not even definable.  Simply because something has become the prevailing opinion on a subject (cf. St. Augustine's opinion about infants who die without Baptism) doesn't make it infallibly true and irreformable.  If it does, then how comes many of these SV bishops/priest who hold this reject the requirement for explicit faith in Christ and the Holy Trinity, which was taught explicitly and exclusively for 1500 years, and is in fact enshrined in the Athanasian Creed?  They hold the opinion of some Jesuit innovators after 1500 years of unchallenged and unquestioned teaching.  So two or three hundred years of theological opinion (questioned by another Jesuit, Father Feeney) pale in comparison.  Yet they do not wish to see their contradiction on the matter.  These same SV bishops/priests also reject those who hold St. Thomas' opinion on the need for explicit faith as also being heretics.  I bet that if I told some of them that infidels (Jєωs, Muslims, etc.) cannot be saved, I'd be denounced as a "Feeneyite" heretic ... rather than a Thomist and a First-1500-Years-of-Church-Teaching-ist ... and refused the Sacraments.  When I was at STAS, there was a priest there teaching the requirement for explicit faith in Christ and the Holy Trinity, and Bishop Williamson admonished him for being "close to Feeneyism".

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Wrong wine, Mass invalid
    « Reply #14 on: June 08, 2023, 10:27:16 AM »
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  • Concerning the alcoholic priest and Mass, two points:  When the alcoholic priest consumes the Precious Blood he does not violate his sobriety, because substantially, it is not wine, but only retains the 'accident' of wine.  Likewise, during the ablutions the priest does not violate his sobriety, simply because if he mixes a few drops of wine with water, and once the water absorbs the drops of wine, the substance is still substantially water, not wine.

    As to Mustum, I too have my doubts.  I have never known a traditional priest to use Mustum, but have heard of some NO priests using it. NO priests constantly must call their sobriety dates into question, because if there is not a valid consecration, then they violate their sobriety dates by drinking wine.  
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