Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Women in the middle ages  (Read 21747 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Philothea3

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 553
  • Reputation: +234/-65
  • Gender: Female
Re: Women in the middle ages
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2024, 03:15:50 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Really pay attention. This filth isn't even Catholic let alone chivalrous.
    I believe it's merely figure of speech of the literature(!) of that period known as courtly love. It's not meant to be read as church teaching but more like a way to understand the status of women with lense of history as the OP did.
    Click to view signature design
    THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, so that we may love you with all our heart, by always having you in mind; with all our soul, by always longing for you; with all our mind, by determining to seek your glory in everything; and with all our strength, of body and soul... 
    - St Francis de Assisi

    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1960
    • Reputation: +925/-150
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #16 on: December 03, 2024, 03:40:58 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • I believe it's merely figure of speech of the literature(!) of that period known as courtly love. It's not meant to be read as church teaching but more like a way to understand the status of women with lense of history as the OP did.
    That cannot be.
    Quote
     An opinion expressed in the 12th century by André le Chapelain is said to be the standard male view of women at that time:
    There is seriously something wrong here if this was the standard view of men. I'm not saying it's church teaching but from how extreme it is, it clearly elevated women to an inordinate position, outside the order God has made.

    I find reading it utterly vile and repulsive. It doesn't seem like chivalry at all but propaganda.


    Offline Emile

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2435
    • Reputation: +1863/-135
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #17 on: December 03, 2024, 06:28:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote
    all the good things of this life are given by God to do your [women’s] will and that of other ladies. It is evident, and for me absolutely clear, that men are nothing, that they are incapable of drinking at the source of goodness if they are not impelled to do so by women. However, women being the origin and cause of every good, and God having given them such a great prerogative…so it is obvious that each man must try to serve ladies so that he may be illuminated by their grace. …For all the good done by living beings is done through the love of women, in order to be praised by them, and to be able to extol the gifts that they give, without which nothing is done in life that deserves praise” (Pernoud, 97)


    I believe it's merely figure of speech of the literature(!) of that period known as courtly love. It's not meant to be read as church teaching but more like a way to understand the status of women with lense of history as the OP did.
    In a way, I agree that it uses a type of figure of speech. I haven't read the work from which the excerpt is taken, but it strikes me as satirical. The French have a uniquely biting wit that comes through even in translation.
    I hold it true, whate'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost
    Than never to have loved at all.
    (In Memoriam A. H. H., 27.13-17 Alfred, Lord Tennyson)

    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1960
    • Reputation: +925/-150
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #18 on: December 03, 2024, 06:31:06 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I haven't read the work from which the excerpt is taken, but it strikes me as satirical. The French have a uniquely biting wit that even comes through in translations.
    If it's satire then why would the author of the article have 

    Quote
    An opinion expressed in the 12th century by André le Chapelain is said to be the standard male view of women at that time:


    Offline Emile

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2435
    • Reputation: +1863/-135
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #19 on: December 03, 2024, 06:39:42 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • If it's satire then why would the author of the article have
    Quote
    An opinion expressed in the 12th century by André le Chapelain is said to be the standard male view of women at that time:
    Well, just because someone writes a book, doesn't make everything in it true or accurate. A reasonable question to be asked when reading it is "who said it was the standard male view of women at that time?" Does he give any corroborating view from other authors of the time?
    I hold it true, whate'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost
    Than never to have loved at all.
    (In Memoriam A. H. H., 27.13-17 Alfred, Lord Tennyson)


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11958
    • Reputation: +7516/-2254
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #20 on: December 03, 2024, 07:50:43 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    You call it simping. I call it chivalry. Only when women are respected and protected for their feminine virtues, they may take on the responsibility to safeguard the society's morals, and not to desperately become a lesser version of men who are secular. 
    :confused:  What?  Your comments sound like some catholic-feminization.

    1.  It's the Church's job to safeguard society's morals, and also the responsibility of both men and women.  To think that it's soley the job of women is just nuts.
    2.  Virtuous women deserve chivalry.  Most women do not.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4160
    • Reputation: +2304/-1201
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #21 on: December 03, 2024, 08:08:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I believe it's merely figure of speech of the literature(!) of that period known as courtly love. It's not meant to be read as church teaching but more like a way to understand the status of women with lense of history as the OP did.
    That was  my impression too.  It sounded like an example from the medieval "courtly love" literary genre.  If so, it is neither Church teaching nor especially representative of everyday thinking.  I think that Chaucer gives more representative views of women. Wikipedia has an article on courtly love that people can look at if they are curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtly_love

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4160
    • Reputation: +2304/-1201
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #22 on: December 03, 2024, 08:20:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • :confused:  What?  Your comments sound like some catholic-feminization.

    1.  It's the Church's job to safeguard society's morals, and also the responsibility of both men and women.  To think that it's soley the job of women is just nuts.

    That was very much like my reaction.  It reminded me of the early suffragette movement.  Its major rationale for claiming that women should vote was a baseless assumption that women have a better moral sense than men and should be involved in government in order to guard society's morals.  Closely tied to this movement, was the temperance movement.  The female strategy for moral improvement was to to make alcohol illegal.  History shows how that idea failed.

    Women can contribute to the morality of society, but this is usually within the traditional spheres as wives, mothers, nuns, grandmothers, etc.  Men have an equally important contribution in their roles, which includes the more public areas of society.


    Offline Philothea3

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 553
    • Reputation: +234/-65
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #23 on: December 03, 2024, 02:47:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In a way, I agree that it uses a type of figure of speech. I haven't read the work from which the excerpt is taken, but it strikes me as satirical. The French have a uniquely biting wit that comes through even in translation.
    Me neither, but I just looked it up, as I guessed, "André Le Chapelain was a French writer on the art of courtly love". https://www.britannica.com/biography/Andre-le-Chapelain 

    I don't think people on the forum is particularly familiar with that genre, nor the meaning of it. So FYI Courtly love is between a Lady and a knight, there's a significant social class dynamic here and a knight praising the Lady is just like how government officials praise the emperor/queen. Yet the so to speak "the level of simping," I believe, is present in love letters and poems throughout history :laugh2:
    The Church doesn't deem those literature as beneficial. Many of them are full of vice and infamous. But trying to rationale it "but the reality is so and so" is missing the point of the literature. It's NOT supposed to be realistic. It's supposed to be an IDEAL. So ideally women should be very virtuous, very noble, very pure, and the very dirty filthy men (author is speaking for himself humbly) can aspire after them.
    Click to view signature design
    THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, so that we may love you with all our heart, by always having you in mind; with all our soul, by always longing for you; with all our mind, by determining to seek your glory in everything; and with all our strength, of body and soul... 
    - St Francis de Assisi

    Offline Philothea3

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 553
    • Reputation: +234/-65
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #24 on: December 03, 2024, 02:52:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That was very much like my reaction.  It reminded me of the early suffragette movement.  Its major rationale for claiming that women should vote was a baseless assumption that women have a better moral sense than men and should be involved in government in order to guard society's morals.  Closely tied to this movement, was the temperance movement.  The female strategy for moral improvement was to to make alcohol illegal.  History shows how that idea failed.

    Women can contribute to the morality of society, but this is usually within the traditional spheres as wives, mothers, nuns, grandmothers, etc.  Men have an equally important contribution in their roles, which includes the more public areas of society.
    So you're saying women voting is wrong. And I am saying voting is wrong. Democracy leads the society down to the drain, so if it did, it was not women's fault. I don't see how anything would be different today if there was never women voting.
    Click to view signature design
    THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, so that we may love you with all our heart, by always having you in mind; with all our soul, by always longing for you; with all our mind, by determining to seek your glory in everything; and with all our strength, of body and soul... 
    - St Francis de Assisi

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4160
    • Reputation: +2304/-1201
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #25 on: December 03, 2024, 03:15:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So you're saying women voting is wrong. And I am saying voting is wrong. Democracy leads the society down to the drain, so if it did, it was not women's fault. I don't see how anything would be different today if there was never women voting.
    I am saying that the original justification for women voting was wrong, based on a false assumption about women's alleged moral superiority.  I am inclined to agree with you about voting in general.  Although I am not sure how much of the problem is democracy in itself and how much is all the "Enlightenment" baggage that comes with it.  The entire philosophical system leads to intellectual rot.


    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4160
    • Reputation: +2304/-1201
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #26 on: December 03, 2024, 03:31:00 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  •  It's supposed to be an IDEAL. So ideally women should be very virtuous, very noble, very pure, and the very dirty filthy men (author is speaking for himself humbly) can aspire after them.
    It's a literary ideal.  There isn't anything like this in theology or Scripture.  The closest Catholic thinking to this is recognizing the Blessed Virgin Mary as a very virtuous and pure ideal. Both men and women aspire after that ideal.

    Offline Dominique

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 54
    • Reputation: +46/-10
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #27 on: December 03, 2024, 07:32:30 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • De Gaulle is one in a long line of traitors that betrayed France. He was worst in many ways because he is considered to the 'right'. However, he covered for the communist massacre of 100,000 patriots in the years following the second world war, in the 'épuration' and left education and culture in the hands of the left.

    There is one silver lining though, he said of the Jєωs after the 6 day war: " the Jєωs, hitherto dispersed, but who had remained what they had always been, that is to say, an elite people, sure of themselves and domineering, have they not come, once gathered in the site of their former greatness, to change into ardent and conquering ambition the very moving wishes which they had formed for nineteen centuries: next year in Jerusalem"

    That was the end for him as (((they))) programmed the May 1969 riots that brought down in his government.

    I was not particuarly enthusiastic when our SSPX school, took the children to visit the Normandy D Day beaches for a school outing, when instead they could have visited the tomb of the Marechal Pétain in the île d'Yeu in the Vendée instead. It would be if a US SSPX school took the children to visit the Lincoln Memorial rather than the grave of Stonewall Jackson. It just doesn't seem right
    Appalling but not surprising from the SSPX... The anti-gaullist priests are pretty much all in the SSPX - resistance now, ironically! 😊

    Offline Caraffa

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1036
    • Reputation: +581/-63
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #28 on: December 04, 2024, 08:40:48 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote
    It should not surprise us that our modern families devoid of a mother at home lack feminine traits. Our modern world lacks compassion, forgiveness, and empathy for others. Cancel culture is a perfect example of removing feminine traits from our hearts and homes by removing mothers; it is our modern Inquisition.
    If you can’t even get recent history correct, then no one should trust what you have to say about history centuries ago. Cancel culture and Covid were the very embodiment of a feminine worldview.
    Pray for me, always.

    Offline Emile

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2435
    • Reputation: +1863/-135
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women in the middle ages
    « Reply #29 on: December 04, 2024, 12:31:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Delete
    I hold it true, whate'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost
    Than never to have loved at all.
    (In Memoriam A. H. H., 27.13-17 Alfred, Lord Tennyson)