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Author Topic: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?  (Read 4317 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2023, 12:51:59 PM »
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  • When you say contrary to the opinion of Innocent III, is this because the source of Denzinger 410 is a  [private?]  letter to a bishop?



    https://patristica.net/denzinger/#n400


     

    Right. Denzinger is not the Magisterium. One could argue with the weight to be given to Innocent III's view and say it's his "opinion." However, its being deemed worthy of an inclusion in Denzinger certainly makes the "opinion" one a Catholic could certainly hold to and entertain, and one would not be "fumbling and bumbling," theologically speaking, by agreeing with Innocent III on that point - to put it mildly.

     
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #46 on: September 07, 2023, 12:52:05 PM »
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  • Is this from the Summa or another work?

    There are multiple citations here:
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

    It also has a discussion about Limbo vs. the teaching of the Council of Florence.  This is a very good theological history of the subject.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #47 on: September 07, 2023, 12:54:26 PM »
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  • Right. Denzinger is not the Magisterium. One could argue with the weight to be given to Innocent III's view and say it's his "opinion." However, its being deemed worthy of an inclusion in Denzinger certainly makes the "opinion" one a Catholic could certainly hold to and entertain, and one would not be "fumbling and bumbling," theologically speaking, by agreeing with Innocent III on that point - to put it mildly.

    Lots of stuff is "included in Denzinger" that probably shouldn't be there, especially after the Rahner edition.  As I've repeatedly said, the Augustinian position that infants who die without Baptism suffer (albeit mildly) in Hell has not been condemned, and therefore it's tenable, though one could probably count on one hand the theologians who held it after St. Robert Bellarmine.  My reference to "fumbling and bumbling" was in the contradictions made by a poster above often from one post to the next.  I think the that opinion is completely wrong and that St. Thomas was right ... but you're entitled to hold it.  I also think Molinism is wrong, but the Church has ruled that people are entitled to hold it without condemnation.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #48 on: September 07, 2023, 12:56:15 PM »
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  •  As for Innocent III, he also wrote at one point that Mass was valid if the priest merely thought the words of consecration, an opinion for which St. Thomas rightly excoriated him.  

    Yes, but is Innocent III on that ground in Denzinger? I would think not; do correct me if I'm wrong. 

    His view on the deprivation of the beatific vision being a "penalty" is in Denzinger.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #49 on: September 07, 2023, 12:58:27 PM »
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  • Lots of stuff is "included in Denzinger" that probably shouldn't be there, especially after the Rahner edition.

    Perhaps. 

    But anyway, the statement of Innocent III about deprivation of the beatific vision being a "penalty" is from earlier editions than Rahner's, and predates V2. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #50 on: September 07, 2023, 12:58:36 PM »
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  • Yes, but is Innocent III on that ground in Denzinger? I would think not; do correct me if I'm wrong.

    His view on the deprivation of the beatific vision being a "penalty" is in Denzinger. 


    Yeah, I get that, but the inclusions / exclusions were made by an editor, at one point, Karl Rahner ... so inclusion in Denziger doesn't really mean anything in and of itself.  One has to be careful with interpreting inclusion in Denziger.  It contains many clearly dogmatic definitions, so there's a temptation to think that everything in there is of the same weight and authority, as, after all, it's referred to as "Sources of Catholic Dogma" in English.  Rahner, for instance, included "Suprema Haec" ... because he liked its implications.  It's an alleged "ruling" of the Holy Office, which doesn't appear in AAS, with Rahner's footnote being to the "Irish Ecclesiastical Review" where Cushing published it (2 years after the man who signed it had died), and he even gave it a name based on the first two Latin words as if it were some kind of Encylical or Bull.  Holy Office decisions are not named that way, but usually by an AAS number of some other annotation.  So there you have an example of Rahner trying to elevate the authority of that docuмent by its mere inclusion in Denzinger.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #51 on: September 07, 2023, 01:02:34 PM »
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  • https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm



    Quote
    In Sent.", II, 33, q. ii, a. 2



    A shame, the commentary on the Sentences seems to only have been partially translated into English.


    https://isidore.co/aquinas/english/Sentences2.htm

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #52 on: September 07, 2023, 01:03:45 PM »
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  • Yeah, I get that, but the inclusions / exclusions were made by an editor, at one point, Karl Rahner ... so inclusion in Denziger doesn't really mean anything in and of itself.

    As  I said,  Denzinger is not the Magisterium. But inclusion in it prior to at least the Rahner edition is indicative of the view expressed in the citation being at least orthodox, if not definitive. It is a recognized Catholic theological authority cited in argument . . . at least prior to Rahner (for Trads). 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #53 on: September 07, 2023, 01:06:24 PM »
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  • As  I said,  Denzinger is not the Magisterium. But inclusion in it prior to at least the Rahner edition is indicative of the view expressed in the citation being at least orthodox, if not definitive. It is a recognized Catholic theological authority cited in argument . . . at least prior to Rahner (for Trads).

    I don't think its inclusion means that it's orthodox or definitive.  This book was compiled by theologians, who have no real charism of protection by the Holy Ghost.  Heck, you don't think that Ecuмenical Councils are protected by the Holy Ghost, but these editors are?  Each entry's authority derives from the authority that the Church gives it.  In fact, I saw a statement from a Pope (though possibly one of the V2 "popes") that a Catechism by itself has no authority, and the authority of anything in there derives from the authority it had from the Church.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #54 on: September 07, 2023, 01:09:10 PM »
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  • A shame, the commentary on the Sentences seems to only have been partially translated into English.

    https://isidore.co/aquinas/english/Sentences2.htm


    Here's a different website:


    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~Sent.II.D33.Q2.A2


    Sent.II.D33.Q2.A2


    Article 2.  Whether unbaptized children feel spiritual affliction in their soul?


    Obj. 1: To the second we proceed as follows. It seems that unbaptized children feel spiritual affliction in their soul. For, just as Chrysostom says, in the damned, the fact that they will lack the vision of God will be a more serious punishment than the fact that they will be burned by the fire below. But children will lack the vision of God. Therefore they will feel spiritual affliction from this.

    Obj. 2: Furthermore, lacking what one wants to have cannot exist without affliction. But children would want to possess the vision of God. Otherwise their will would actually be perverse. Therefore since they lack it, it seems that they feel affliction from that fact.

    Obj. 3: If it is said that they are not afflicted, since they know they are not being deprived by their own fault, then on the contrary: immunity from fault does not lessen the pain of punishment, but increases it. For if someone is disinherited or mutilated for what is not his own fault, he does not on this account suffer less pain. Therefore even though children will be deprived of such a great good for what is not their own fault, their pain is not thereby taken away.

    Obj. 4: Furthermore, unbaptized children are to Adam's merits as baptized children are to Christ's merits. But from Christ's merit baptized children obtain the reward of eternal life. Therefore unbaptized children also undergo pain from the fact of being deprived of eternal life through Adam's demerit.

    Obj. 5: Furthermore, one cannot be absent from something he loves without pain. But the children will have natural knowledge of God and for the same reason will naturally love him. Therefore, since they are separated from him forever, it seems that they cannot suffer this without pain.

    On the contrary, if unbaptized children had internal pain after death, they will experience pain either from fault or punishment. If it is from fault, then since they cannot be further cleansed from this fault, the pain will lead to despair. But this kind of pain is the worm of conscience in the damned. Therefore the children will have the worm of conscience, and in this case their punishment would not be the most mild, as it says in the text. Alternatively, if they experienced pain from punishment, then since their punishment is justly from God, their will would be opposed to divine justice, and in this case it would actually be deformed, which we are not granting here. Therefore they will feel no internal pain.

    Furthermore, right reason cannot bear someone's being distressed over what he did not have in himself the ability to avoid. For this reason Seneca proves that distress does not befall the wise person. But in the children there is right reason that is not obscured by any actual sin. Therefore they will not be troubled by the fact that they undergo a punishment that they had no way of avoiding.

    I answer that concerning this there are three opinions. Some say that the children will undergo no pain, since in them reason will be so darkened that they will not know that they have lost what they have lost. This does not seem probable, such that the soul freed from the burden of the body should not know at least what could be investigated by reason, and even much more.

    Thus others say that in them there is complete knowledge of what falls under natural knowledge and that they know God and that they are deprived of seeing him and that from this they will feel some pain. Yet, their pain will be mitigated inasmuch as they incurred the fault for which they were damned not by their own will. This, too, does not seem probable, since this kind of pain concerning the loss of such a great good cannot be a small one, particularly without hope of recovering it. Hence their punishment would not be the mildest. Furthermore, for entirely the same reason that they will not be punished by sensible pain inflicted externally, they will also not feel internal pain because the pain of punishment does not respond to pleasure in a fault. Hence with pleasure removed from original sin, all pain is excluded from its punishment.

    And thus others say that they will have complete knowledge of what falls under natural knowledge and will know they have been deprived of eternal life as well as the reason why they have been excluded from it and that, nevertheless, they will not be afflicted by this in any way. But one should look into how this can be the case.

    Therefore it should be known that if one has right reason, he is not afflicted by the fact that he lacks what goes beyond his own proportion. Instead, he is only afflicted by lacking that to which he was in some way proportioned. So, too, no wise person is afflicted by the fact that he cannot fly like a bird or because he is not king or emperor. But he would be afflicted if he were deprived of what he had some aptitude to possess in some way.

    Therefore I say that every man possessing the use of free choice is proportioned to obtain eternal life because he can prepare himself for grace, through which he will merit eternal life. And thus if they fall short of this, it will be a very great pain for them, since they are losing what could have been theirs. But the children were never proportioned to possessing eternal life, since it was not due them from the principles of nature, seeing as it exceeds every faculty of nature, nor could they have had acts of their own whereby to obtain a good this great. And thus they will experience no pain at all from lacking the vision of God. In fact, they will instead rejoice in the fact that they will participate much in God's goodness and natural perfections. And it cannot be said that they were proportioned to obtain eternal life, even if not through their own action but through the action of others concerning them. For they were able to be baptized by others, just as many children in the same condition were baptized and have obtained eternal life. For it belongs to super-surpassing grace that someone should be rewarded without an act of his own. Hence lacking this kind of grace no more causes sadness in unbaptized children who die than the fact that many graces given to others in similar condition are not given does in the wise.

    Reply Obj. 1: In those damned for actual sin, who had the use of free choice, there was an aptitude for obtaining eternal life, whereas there is not in the children, as was said. And thus the notion of both cases is not similar.

    Reply Obj. 2: Although the will is for what is possible and what is impossible, as it says in Ethics 3, the ordered and complete will is only for that to which one has in some way been ordered. And if they fall short in this will, human beings experience pain, but not if they fall short of the will for what is impossible, which should really be called a "velleity" rather than a will. For one is not willing the thing simply, but would will it if it were possible.

    Reply Obj. 3: Everyone is ordered to possess his own patrimony or the limbs of his own body. And thus it is no wonder if someone experiences pain at losing them, whether he is deprived of them by his own fault or someone else's. Hence it is clear that the argument does not proceed from a similar case.

    Reply Obj. 4: The gift of Christ surpasses Adam's sin, as it says in Romans 5:12–21. Hence unbaptized children need not have as much evil as baptized children have good.

    Reply Obj. 5:
    Even though unbaptized children are separated from God as far as the joining with him that occurs through glory goes, they are not totally separated from him. In fact, they are joined to him through participation in natural goods. And thus they will also be able to rejoice in him with natural knowledge and love.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #55 on: September 07, 2023, 01:14:36 PM »
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  • https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/why-is-limbo-the-lower-part-of-hell-and-not-the-upper/msg902455/#msg902455



    Quote

    Furthermore,


    [ . . . ]


    And thus they will experience no pain at all from lacking the vision of God. In fact, they will instead rejoice in the fact that they will participate much in God's goodness and natural perfections.


    [ . . . ]


    Reply Obj. 5:
    Even though unbaptized children are separated from God as far as the joining with him that occurs through glory goes, they are not totally separated from him. In fact, they are joined to him through participation in natural goods. And thus they will also be able to rejoice in him with natural knowledge and love.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #56 on: September 07, 2023, 01:19:38 PM »
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  • I don't think its inclusion means that it's orthodox or definitive.  This book was compiled by theologians, who have no real charism of protection by the Holy Ghost.  Heck, you don't think that Ecuмenical Councils are protected by the Holy Ghost, but these editors are?  Each entry's authority derives from the authority that the Church gives it.

    It is not about what I think. Unlike you, I offer opinions, but do not think, when I do, they are anything more than my opinions, and that people who disagree with me are "fumbling and bumbling" when they agree with a pov of a pope in Denzinger.

    You pretend the orthodoxy of Torquemada while harboring unique and extreme views not shared by fellow Trads. I find no fault with your advancing and arguing for your unique views, but with your demeaning talking down to people who take orthodox positions. And for your hypocrisy of attacking the orthodoxy of others in your Torquemada vein while harboring what many would call odd and unorthodox views yourself - on BOD, etc. I think Sean has  put together a good list on that here.

    In short, you are often the hypocrite, and your hypocrisy often expresses itself in ways that are hard to ignore they are so insufferable when one knows the (your) context.

    You can dismiss reliable editions of Denzinger, but your fellow Catholics, following the orthodox and therefore credible consensus, acknowledge it as having significant weight.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #57 on: September 07, 2023, 02:00:31 PM »
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  • And for your hypocrisy of attacking the orthodoxy of others in your Torquemada vein while harboring what many would call odd and unorthodox views yourself - on BOD, etc. I think Sean has  put together a good list on that here.

    In short, you are often the hypocrite, and your hypocrisy often expresses itself in ways that are hard to ignore they are so insufferable when one knows the (your) context.

    You're just sore because I call out your heresies, regarding the nature of the Church, her indefectibility, the Magisterium, where you basically promote Old Catholicism, and when I see heretical views being expressed such as your water = metaphor for Christ, then I call it out.  When people promote Pelagianism or state that initial justification can happen "without" Baptism, you bet that I'm going to call out heresies.  You've promoted a couple of them yourself.

    As for things like Sean's stupid list, he's the one attempting to ridicule me, using ad hominems on matters, many of which aren't even theological, such as Flat Earth and Sister Lucy truth.  So your taking Sean's side when he's the one who's on the "attack" is more of your self-serving and mendacious hypocrisy.  When I cited quotations from +Lefebvre that were favorable or leaning toward sedevacantism, he called me a "sodomite".  But you back Johnson here when on most of those points, it is I whom am being attacked, and then absolutely I'm going to fight back.  It's really pathetic that when we're debating theological matters, Sean ridicules me for Flat Earth, when it has nothing to do with the matter at hand.  But he does that when it's all he's got and is incapable of refuting arguments against his views.

    Yes, you've expressed a couple of heretical views here, and you're sore about it because I call you out over it, and this last post was just one big ad hominem, and therefore you're guilty of the same hypocrisy.  So you can stop crying like a snowflake.  If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.  You think it's OK for you to launch personal attacks, and Johnson to launch personal attacks, including stooping to the depths of calling me a sodomite when he could refute a point I made, then I'm going to fight back.  There are individuals I don't agree with that I've never gone after, like ByzCat or Arvinger (pro BoD) ... because they never attacked me.  But the ones who attack me with ad hominems, well, they're going to get a counter-attack, and then you, like many of them, cry like snowflakes about it.  You punch me in the face, and I punch back, and you go crying as if you were the victim there.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #58 on: September 07, 2023, 02:05:18 PM »
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  • And this latest attack from DR was prompted by exposing the contradiction (hypocrisy) of holding up Denzinger to be a veritable rule of faith in itself while saying that an Ecuмenical Council can teach grave error, where you promote the practical infallibility of theological opinion on BoD as authoritative, but reject the authority of an Ecuмenical Council, and the man you claim is the Pope, and all the bishops of the world you claim to be Catholic bishops, that these have all erred, but some theologians can't be wrong for a few hundred years (when there's ample precedent for it).  So you play both sides of the fence, as many R&R do, that we must accept the opinions of those theologians who support their views, while they're entitled to reject an Ecuмenical Council, a long line of Popes, 60 years of Magisterium, the Public Worship used by the Church, and the consensus of pretty much every bishop, pope, and theologian over the past 60 years who all accept Vatican II as legitimate Catholic teaching.

    Ecuмenical Councils are what go INTO Denzinger (among other things).  So when the next editor comes along and adds Vatican II to Denzinger, you'd better comply.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
    « Reply #59 on: September 07, 2023, 02:09:20 PM »
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  • Actually, here you go:


    Hunermann added V2, Roncalli, Montini, Wojtyla, and Ratziner to Denzinger.  This makes these sources "definitive" and "orthodox".  So you'd better acquiesce now.