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Author Topic: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?  (Read 4663 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2023, 12:51:59 PM »



When you say contrary to the opinion of Innocent III, is this because the source of Denzinger 410 is a  [private?]  letter to a bishop?



https://patristica.net/denzinger/#n400


 

Right. Denzinger is not the Magisterium. One could argue with the weight to be given to Innocent III's view and say it's his "opinion." However, its being deemed worthy of an inclusion in Denzinger certainly makes the "opinion" one a Catholic could certainly hold to and entertain, and one would not be "fumbling and bumbling," theologically speaking, by agreeing with Innocent III on that point - to put it mildly.

 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2023, 12:52:05 PM »

Is this from the Summa or another work?

There are multiple citations here:
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

It also has a discussion about Limbo vs. the teaching of the Council of Florence.  This is a very good theological history of the subject.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2023, 12:54:26 PM »
Right. Denzinger is not the Magisterium. One could argue with the weight to be given to Innocent III's view and say it's his "opinion." However, its being deemed worthy of an inclusion in Denzinger certainly makes the "opinion" one a Catholic could certainly hold to and entertain, and one would not be "fumbling and bumbling," theologically speaking, by agreeing with Innocent III on that point - to put it mildly.

Lots of stuff is "included in Denzinger" that probably shouldn't be there, especially after the Rahner edition.  As I've repeatedly said, the Augustinian position that infants who die without Baptism suffer (albeit mildly) in Hell has not been condemned, and therefore it's tenable, though one could probably count on one hand the theologians who held it after St. Robert Bellarmine.  My reference to "fumbling and bumbling" was in the contradictions made by a poster above often from one post to the next.  I think the that opinion is completely wrong and that St. Thomas was right ... but you're entitled to hold it.  I also think Molinism is wrong, but the Church has ruled that people are entitled to hold it without condemnation.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2023, 12:56:15 PM »
 As for Innocent III, he also wrote at one point that Mass was valid if the priest merely thought the words of consecration, an opinion for which St. Thomas rightly excoriated him.  

Yes, but is Innocent III on that ground in Denzinger? I would think not; do correct me if I'm wrong. 

His view on the deprivation of the beatific vision being a "penalty" is in Denzinger.  

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Why is limbo the lower part of hell and not the upper?
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2023, 12:58:27 PM »
Lots of stuff is "included in Denzinger" that probably shouldn't be there, especially after the Rahner edition.

Perhaps. 

But anyway, the statement of Innocent III about deprivation of the beatific vision being a "penalty" is from earlier editions than Rahner's, and predates V2.