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Author Topic: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?  (Read 1666 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
« on: December 26, 2023, 08:50:42 AM »
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    • Why did the Fathers/Church not keep the Divine Name in scripture?
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    Offline moneil

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #1 on: December 26, 2023, 11:20:37 AM »
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    • I would assume that as the Vulgate (for point of reference, the Church now uses the Sixto-Clementine or Clementine Vulgate, the 1592 revision of St. Jerome's Vulgate) is a translation of Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin, the corresponding Latin words would be used.

    From some quick "look-it-up": Yahweh and Jehovah are older English representations of YHWH.  The only English bible I know of that uses the word "Yahweh" in the Old Testament is the Jerusalem Bible (it's revision in the late 1980's is the New Jerusalem Bible).  I did a quick check of a few passages where Yahweh is used in the New Jerusalem.  In the Vulgate it is translated as Domnius and in the Douay-Rheims (Bishop Challoner revision) it is rendered as Lord.


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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #2 on: December 26, 2023, 11:30:13 AM »
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    • I assume you're just curious, so please don't take this personally.

    But when you think about it, a decent answer would be "It was good enough for the Catholic Church for centuries; it's good enough for me."

    Frankly, there are some things I just don't question. I trust. Yes, I have some trust left. Some may be jealous ;)

    It's a testament to the depth and length of the Crisis that we Catholics find ourselves questioning literally EVERYTHING, going back further and further in search of goodness, truth, and purity, trusting literally NO ONE along the way.

    Sad, and tragic.

    But we have to keep our head on straight. The Catholic Church up to Vatican II we can trust. A few foibles here and there due to its human instruments, yes -- but in its core, the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ and chosen vessel of Truth, founded by Christ Himself and maintained by His own promise to St. Peter.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #3 on: December 26, 2023, 11:42:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 26, 2023, 11:30:13 AM
    I assume you're just curious, so please don't take this personally.

    Knowing Anthony (only from his posting), I imagine he's just asking why and not questioning its validity.

    Prots try to turn Yahweh into some proper name, but the entire point of the expression by God was to say that He HAS NO NAME.  Names define the essences of things, but God has no essence, only an existence, so to use "Yahweh" as if it were some kind of name directly contradicts what God was trying to reveal when He said, "I am Who am."  Nevertheless, a designation for "I am Who am" (as referring to God) needs to be there as a placeholder for its appearance in various grammatical constructions, so the Hebrews inserted "Adonai"  in place of Yahweh when reading or explicating the text, since the Divine Name (or, rather Non-Name) was ineffable and unknowable.

    So, the bottom line is that it's a mistake to think of "Yahweh" as some kind of name, or, as you put it, the "Divine Name", when it's really a Divine Non-Name, i.e. a reference to God denying that He has a name at all.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #4 on: December 26, 2023, 05:17:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 26, 2023, 11:30:13 AM
    I assume you're just curious, so please don't take this personally.

    But when you think about it, a decent answer would be "It was good enough for the Catholic Church for centuries; it's good enough for me."

    Frankly, there are some things I just don't question. I trust. Yes, I have some trust left. Some may be jealous ;)

    It's a testament to the depth and length of the Crisis that we Catholics find ourselves questioning literally EVERYTHING, going back further and further in search of goodness, truth, and purity, trusting literally NO ONE along the way.

    Sad, and tragic.

    But we have to keep our head on straight. The Catholic Church up to Vatican II we can trust. A few foibles here and there due to its human instruments, yes -- but in its core, the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ and chosen vessel of Truth, founded by Christ Himself and maintained by His own promise to St. Peter.
    A heretic keeps bothering me with the question so I am trying to shut them down.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #5 on: December 26, 2023, 05:28:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 26, 2023, 11:42:40 AM
    Knowing Anthony (only from his posting), I imagine he's just asking why and not questioning its validity.

    Prots try to turn Yahweh into some proper name, but the entire point of the expression by God was to say that He HAS NO NAME.  Names define the essences of things, but God has no essence, only an existence, so to use "Yahweh" as if it were some kind of name directly contradicts what God was trying to reveal when He said, "I am Who am."  Nevertheless, a designation for "I am Who am" (as referring to God) needs to be there as a placeholder for its appearance in various grammatical constructions, so the Hebrews inserted "Adonai"  in place of Yahweh when reading or explicating the text, since the Divine Name (or, rather Non-Name) was ineffable and unknowable.

    So, the bottom line is that it's a mistake to think of "Yahweh" as some kind of name, or, as you put it, the "Divine Name", when it's really a Divine Non-Name, i.e. a reference to God denying that He has a name at all.
    I thought God's essence was His existence?

    And can't we say that God does have a name now, Jesus?
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    Online Mark 79

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #6 on: December 26, 2023, 08:29:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 26, 2023, 11:42:40 AM
    Knowing Anthony (only from his posting), I imagine he's just asking why and not questioning its validity.

    Prots try to turn Yahweh into some proper name, but the entire point of the expression by God was to say that He HAS NO NAME.  Names define the essences of things, but God has no essence, only an existence, so to use "Yahweh" as if it were some kind of name directly contradicts what God was trying to reveal when He said, "I am Who am."  Nevertheless, a designation for "I am Who am" (as referring to God) needs to be there as a placeholder for its appearance in various grammatical constructions, so the Hebrews inserted "Adonai"  in place of Yahweh when reading or explicating the text, since the Divine Name (or, rather Non-Name) was ineffable and unknowable.

    So, the bottom line is that it's a mistake to think of "Yahweh" as some kind of name, or, as you put it, the "Divine Name", when it's really a Divine Non-Name, i.e. a reference to God denying that He has a name at all.
    This is probably the best and most succinct exposition on this question that I have ever seen. Kudos on this point.

    Dare I tag on a corollary? The Kabbalistic Jews claim God has a name, they know it, and knowing it gives them power.  How surprised those lying, thieving, perverted, genocidalists will be!
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    Online Mark 79

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #7 on: December 26, 2023, 08:36:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on December 26, 2023, 05:17:14 PM
    A heretic keeps bothering me with the question so I am trying to shut them down.
    Well, you can keep the heretic busy by insisting that he first explain why he has any business complaining. AFter all… how many entire books is his fake "Bible' missing???

    I think that Lad gave you a marvelously clear and succinct answer to shut his Prottie pie-hole.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #8 on: December 26, 2023, 09:22:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on December 26, 2023, 05:28:33 PM
    I thought God's essence was His existence?

    And can't we say that God does have a name now, Jesus?
    We can say for sure that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity bears the Holy Name, Jesus.
    Run this by your bothersome heretic:

    Luke 1: 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.  32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.  33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.  34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?  35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.



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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #9 on: December 26, 2023, 09:23:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on December 26, 2023, 08:36:57 PM
    Well, you can keep the heretic busy by insisting that he first explain why he has any business complaining. AFter all… how many entire books is his fake "Bible' missing???

    I think that Lad gave you a marvelously clear and succinct answer to shut his Prottie pie-hole.
    Yeah, honestly JW's are another bunch of ridiculous, no matter how much evidence you give for showing the Divinity of Christ they just do not believe.
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    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #10 on: December 26, 2023, 10:07:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on December 26, 2023, 09:23:21 PM
    Yeah, honestly JW's are another bunch of ridiculous, no matter how much evidence you give for showing the Divinity of Christ they just do not believe.

    You've probably already seen it but Dimonds did a quick refutation of JW on their site somewhere and it was an older video on their YT channel if I'm remembering right. 

    You can try to argue with them straight from logic.  They are very similar to Mor(m)ons and once I asked a Mor(m)on "missionary" if Christ said His Church would stand until the end of time then what happened to The Church from the time you guys think it became "corrupted" until your sect got it figured out 1500 years later?  They couldn't answer and left rather embarrassed.   
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #11 on: December 27, 2023, 09:23:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: EWPJ on December 26, 2023, 10:07:58 PM
    You've probably already seen it but Dimonds did a quick refutation of JW on their site somewhere and it was an older video on their YT channel if I'm remembering right.

    You can try to argue with them straight from logic.  They are very similar to Mor(m)ons and once I asked a Mor(m)on "missionary" if Christ said His Church would stand until the end of time then what happened to The Church from the time you guys think it became "corrupted" until your sect got it figured out 1500 years later?  They couldn't answer and left rather embarrassed. 
    I tried half a dozen verses showing that Christ is God, they say the same crap "Oh Christ is god but not true God" or "Your interpretation is wrong". I quoted the prophets, fathers, apostles and Christ Himself yet they still do not believe...
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    Online Mark 79

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #12 on: December 27, 2023, 09:51:41 PM »
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    • These days I only have extended arguments with heretics when it helps me refine my own understanding because they bring a refined argument to the table..

    Usually the objections of Prots are merely generic stupidities, easily refuted, and I won't waste breath on them unless there are fence-sitters who may benefit from a more protracted exposition of Catholic Truth.
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    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #13 on: December 28, 2023, 09:17:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on December 26, 2023, 05:28:33 PM
    I thought God's essence was His existence?

    And can't we say that God does have a name now, Jesus?
    You are correct.  According to Thomists, the essence of God is the Divine Aseity, which is self existence.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why doesn't the Vulgate use YHWH (LORD)?
    « Reply #14 on: December 28, 2023, 09:54:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marcellinus on December 28, 2023, 09:17:02 AM
    You are correct.  According to Thomists, the essence of God is the Divine Aseity, which is self existence. 

    Only with "essence" being used loosely.  In reality, God has no essence, just existence.  Essence entails a potency, but God is pure act without any potency, actualized or otherwise.  So the statement that God's essence is His existence is a somewhat loose use of the term to basically mean that God has no essence that's distinct from His existence.
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