Author Topic: Why didn't Jesus (Read 11961 times)

Trinity · « **on:** July 07, 2010, 08:32:16 AM »

set up a Catholic gov't, along with His own police force to ensure that no one broke His laws or spoke any heresy?

Trinity · « **Reply #1 on:** July 07, 2010, 09:35:49 AM »

What? No one knows? Or is it just too stupid a question to answer? If so then why the big bash on religious liberty? If we quash that liberty, where goes free will? How many converts would be made if people are forced to be Catholic?

Matto · « **Reply #2 on:** July 07, 2010, 09:44:14 AM »

Don't forget about the Old Testament. God himself created the laws by which the Israelites ruled their country. One of those laws says that blasphemers should be stoned to death. That's what God thinks the government should do to those who exercise their "right to religious liberty."

Belloc · « **Reply #3 on:** July 07, 2010, 09:46:12 AM »

the Church was underground and presecuted, but was to be spread and society molded wihin its laws.

Jesus also gave us a Church to make Him known and to tackle questions of dogma, doctrine and social....was Louis IX kingdom a Catholic state? yes it was, was Louis IX wrong then? when he used his power to enforce Church teaching, esp with the Jєωs, was he wrong? no....

How about Blessed Karl? was he wrong as he was a Catholic ruler and tried to base his short reign on CST and the idea of a Catholic state? Should he opted for a secular democracy or republic like USA?

what about Salaazar? Franco? Dolfuss?

The Popes, including but not limtied to Leo XIII were clear, that Catholicism was to be spread and implemented-not just in churches, not just in hearts, but in every facet of life. Society-from economics, to politics,etc is to be permeated with Catholic truth, or it is not a true society-period, no in between.....

Have some good talks on this, book suggestions, etc for those truly wanting to know more.......I am sure some others here too that agree with me can make good suggestions and comments.......

maybe later, will try or tomorrow, try to set up a thread on this topic.......

Dawn · « **Reply #4 on:** July 07, 2010, 09:46:29 AM »

Quote from: Matto

Don't forget about the Old Testament. God himself created the laws by which the Israelites ruled their country. One of those laws says that blasphemers must be stoned to death. That's what God thinks the government should do to those who exercise their "right to religious liberty."

:applause:

Belloc · « **Reply #5 on:** July 07, 2010, 09:47:58 AM »

Quote from: Matto

Don't forget about the Old Testament. God himself created the laws by which the Israelites ruled their country. One of those laws says that blasphemers must be stoned to death. That's what God thinks the government should do to those who exercise their "right to religious liberty."

True, the Davidic Kingdom, and prior, and post, was not seperate....David was a King an a High Priest....others were King, but ruled in God's name and based on OT Jєωιѕн faith.....another good example is the Macchabees.....Book 1, Ch 1-2 seem to describe our present time........they cleansed israel and set up a Jєωιѕн state.....a real Jєωιѕн state, not the fake utopian one now....

Trinity · « **Reply #6 on:** July 07, 2010, 09:51:47 AM »

Thanks for answering, matto. Also don't forget we have many martyrs because there was no religious liberty at one time. And don't forget England, where religious lack of liberty went first one way then the other.

If anyone can use force to make us what He wants, it is God. In St. James you will read that man's anger does not work God's justice. If God doesn't use force, why should we? And don't forget, Jesus came to fulfill the law and He taught something different about making converts.

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** July 07, 2010, 09:57:10 AM »

Quote from: Trinity

If God doesn't use force, why should we?

Read the Book of Joshua and then tell me what God thinks about using force.

Dawn · « **Reply #8 on:** July 07, 2010, 10:02:37 AM »

This quote would fit here to. Yes, God says use force if they do not follow Church law
St. Basil the Great (374): “A woman who has deliberately destroyed a fetus must pay the penalty for murder… Those also who give drugs causing abortions are murderers themselves, as well as those who receive the poison which kills the fetus.”

Belloc · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2010, 10:05:51 AM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: Trinity
If God doesn't use force, why should we?

Read the Book of Joshua and then tell me what God thinks about using force.

Trinity-did not the Founding Fathers of the USA use force to win freedom from England? and do you not in some manner approve of this and celebrate it?

why then not a Catholic state and enforcement of laws?

God DOES USE FORCE! read the book noted above, but also, first 5 books of OT and also, Macchebees....the Mac family restored the Temple and cleansed it, then rededicated Israel to the Lord and note they were rewarded.....same too David...

did we not use force to protect Christendom from theTurks? Lepanto, Malta,etc....

Trinity · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2010, 10:09:14 AM »

I've read the book of Joshua. Several times. Hasn't it occured to you that if it weren't for religious liberty, we would all probably be protestant? The odds are overwhelmingly in favor of it going that way. Then we Catholics would have the choice of recanting our faith or being martyrs. Either way, no more Catholics, except perhaps for a few who hid out and or led double lives. The results of enforced religion was typically proven by the morenos. How many true Catholic souls did God garner from that experiment? Better to read the New Testament and take your cue from Jesus.

Dawn · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2010, 10:14:06 AM »

Religious Liberty is a condemed heresy.

Not that you will read it, but I will try again:

http://www.christorchaos.com/AHeresyisaHeresy.htm

Trinity · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2010, 10:14:50 AM »

I borrowed this from Myrna....

2 Corinthians chapter 3
"Now the Lord is the spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is FREEDOM".

Get it? Liberty=freedom=free will.

Show me where Jesus suggested we force people to follow Him.

Dawn · « **Reply #13 on:** July 07, 2010, 10:16:32 AM »

Quote from: Dawn

Religious Liberty is a condemed heresy.

Not that you will read it, but I will try again:

http://www.christorchaos.com/AHeresyisaHeresy.htm[/quote

Heresies abound in our time of unparalleled chaos. The multifaceted and inter-related heresies of conciliarism (especially those of religious liberty and ecuмenism) infect the lives of most Catholics today. The Novus Ordo Missae, founded in the ethos of Protestantism and Modernism, propagates the false belief that it is normal and natural for the Mass to undergo rapid, revolutionary changes, thereby convincing Catholics that "change" is just part of normal liturgical practice. The rotten fruit of the ceaseless changes wrought in the Protestantized Mass begotten by Annibale Bugnini, who began his work of attacking the Mass in the 1950s, is the belief that doctrine itself can change, something that most Catholics today accept as a matter of course without any objection whatsoever.

Belloc · « **Reply #14 on:** July 07, 2010, 10:24:57 AM »

This is a good discussion thread- :applause: to trinity for this...

Jesus is teh same that led Israel into battle in the OT-you cannto seperate the two...he is a divine warrior in both, though his purpose was different in NT, same person, same ruler!! You CANNOT seperate the "jesus of the OT" from teh "jesus of the NT" at all.....

the idea of a Catholic state was re-enforced by people like Calvin and henry VIII actually, for they did not open the flood gates to indifferentism, they kept a Catholic idea.....just Prot state....

Morenos? some were false Christians yes, soem were not........and? the alternative, just let everyone worship as they pleased? You are now sounding rather NO, V2ish....

ABL wrote a lot about the Catholic state and how the liberals behind V2 wanted to abolish that and did.....

I am taking cue for Jesus, for through His Church, he has taught and the teaching holds that there is to be no indifferent States, for how can the state then enforce His will? how can a Prot state enforce contraception laws? abortion/eugenics-most Prots in 20's and 30's supported that...how does a secular sate uphold His teaching?

does not the OT and NT give us accounts of a nation that fails to obey God's laws then is punished? is it random we in USA are under that punishment now?

and if we found ourselves in a prot state-could we not either move or become martyrs? is martyrdom an evil, then? So we live in an indifferent state, are not persecuted, but face punishments.....or we die martyrs in state of holiness....

again, was Karl wrong? Louis IX? Dolfuss? Phillip II? were they somehow not reading the NT and missing the Jesus example you note? how then do we disregard the Catholic state teaching of past saints, Popes, etc?

is Jesus the same, yesterday, today and foreever? did he not lead Israel's armies? was he not placed over Israel as a king? (Ecc 17).Again, Faith is to be infused in to all facets of life or there is not truth.....that is the USA and most nations today-how do we like it?