Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Yeti on April 26, 2024, 01:31:40 PM
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This question came up in another thread, but since it wasn't really the main question in the other thread, i decided to open its own thread.
Anyone who reads history will see right away that every human society in history punished serious crimes with death. No one ever thought there was anything wrong with this. Millennium after millennium, people who committed serious crimes -- and not just murder, but also treason, grand theft, rape, witchcraft, etc. -- were executed. This is not just something that was practiced in the Roman Empire, or here or there, but it was practiced in African tribes, in the Himalayas, in South America, on islands in the Pacific, etc., for all of known human history. Until a couple of centuries ago, it was as natural to mankind as eating and drinking.
Then, in the last couple of centuries, people began to believe there was something wrong with putting criminals to death, and this movement rapidly gained momentum until now capital punishment is only practiced in maybe a couple of countries in the world anymore. The United States is the only civilized country that practices it at all, but even here it is extremely rare in comparison with the number of people who commit crimes who would have been executed in every human society in history before 300 years ago. The number of people who commit what every human culture considered a capital offense in the past, who actually receive capital punishment, is probably less than .001% of such people in the United States.
Now, I understand that socialist governments impose laws that the population in general don't approve of, such as open borders, but in the case of capital punishment it does appear to me that most of the population is very much against it.
This is something that really puzzles me, because the desire for justice is something so ingrained in human nature that people always want the bad guy to suffer. And the crimes that every human society punishes with death, such as murder, treason, armed robbery, kidnapping, rape, child m0lestation, and so on, are still things that fill the normal person with outrage.
Now, human nature doesn't change, and people still have the same outrage at these crimes that they have always had, and always will have. So I don't understand why people can believe that people who commit these crimes should not be put to death. This really puzzles me. In fact, when someone expresses outrage at some terrible crime, and you say that such a person should be put to death, most people in this country will usually respond with outrage at the person who says this, and shift their outrage at the person who wants justice and suddenly argue in favor of the monster who committed the terrible crime.
This is something so contrary to human nature that I struggle to grasp it. I would have a hard enough time understanding one or two cranks who could think like this, but now the great majority of society thinks this way, which is very strange to me.
I have thought about this conundrum a lot, and I don't know what cause such a fundamental shift, apparently, in one of the most basic instincts in human nature. I have thought of several factors -- feminism and the female vote, for one thing. Women lack the moral fortitude to put people to death, so they are against doing so, and the female vote likely accounts for a lot of the reductions in death penalty crimes and executions in general. This is probably a major factor, but it doesn't explain why men also are against capital punishment, and I think a lot of them are.
My theory in general is that it is a symptom of moral weakness in society. People can't do anything hard anymore. And putting someone to death is hard, even someone who really deserves it. I think people in society have hypocritically covered their moral weakness at failing to put people to death with the cloak of a false sense of "mercy" and every possible excuse, such as "We can't be 100% sure anyone ever actually committed any crime, so therefore we can't put anyone to death," and all the other liberal excuses we have all heard.
I think that's maybe the biggest factor, but I think also another factor is that human justice is an analog of divine justice. When people see someone receiving the punishment their deserve for their crimes, it reminds them that they will likewise receive the proper punishment for their own sins. But if people can pervert the notion of justice into one of "rehabilitation" instead of vengeance, as it truly is, then they can say to themselves, "Well, God is just, but justice doesn't mean vengeance, it means rehabilitation, so therefore I won't go to hell when I die, but I'll be "rehabilitated" somehow by God and eventually go to heaven." That's a bit simplistic, but I definitely think people don't want to think about the idea of justice and vengeance for wrongdoing on the part of the civil authority, and that's part of so many people's opposition to capital punishment.
Along similar lines, people are increasingly against locking criminals in prison forever, as well. There is an increasingly strong notion in society that criminals should be released to commit more crimes against innocent people.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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Women are generally stronger in emotion, compassion, mercy.
Men are generally more focused on Reason, logic, cold laws, and the Greater Good.
Women are natural mothers, overflowing with compassion for all. But in better times, even they submitted to men and trusted that the men knew what was best for society. They submitted to their leadership. And what do you know? The world was a better place.
Long story short, far too many men have become women. At least mentally and emotionally. Let's just say they have been "feminized".
...and what is the result? Today we're on the verge of collapse.
But yes, thieves (not talking about shoplifting or petty theft) were traditionally put to death. And note that Our Lord didn't have 1 iota of criticism against this practice. He even submitted to the Death Penalty although it was infinitely unjust in His case.
Horse thieves used to get hung, in the Middle East they would cut your hand off, etc. AND IT MAKES SENSE. You can't have *civilization*, you know, "nice things" like electricity, White Collar jobs, Internet, computers, software, etc. if everyone is constantly preoccupied and worried that someone is going to steal their stuff. So yeah, there has to be a penalty. Otherwise, who WOULDN'T want "free stuff" instead of having to work for it? Human nature and all.
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I have thought about this conundrum a lot, and I don't know what cause such a fundamental shift, apparently, in one of the most basic instincts in human nature. I have thought of several factors -- feminism and the female vote, for one thing. Women lack the moral fortitude to put people to death, so they are against doing so, and the female vote likely accounts for a lot of the reductions in death penalty crimes and executions in general. This is probably a major factor, but it doesn't explain why men also are against capital punishment, and I think a lot of them are.
I don't personally know any woman who thinks like this. Maybe the young generation but certainly not any in mine.
In the past there were cultures where the perpetrator (if caught by the family etc) was handed over to the mother and aunts of the victim who'd keep him alive for an extended period of time. The noose would have been more merciful.
With today's technology (cameras) and DNA, capital crimes should have justice dispatched swiftly within 48-72 hours. The present system is no deterrent to crime.
If you're looking to blame someone for the lack of capital punishment you need look no further
than...LAWYERS... to them it''s a cash cow to keep appeals etc going....and the repeat business when they get out and repeat their crimes.
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With today's technology (cameras) and DNA, capital crimes should have justice dispatched swiftly within 48-72 hours. The present system is no deterrent to crime.
The only problem here is that today's government has been shown to falsify all of this at any time if it is politically expedient.
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Women are natural mothers, overflowing with compassion for all. But in better times, even they submitted to men and trusted that the men knew what was best for society. They submitted to their leadership. And what do you know? The world was a better place.
Only because the men were real men back then and women could be as God created them.
I don't know any woman who wants to take on a man's role and it is terrifying when you can't depend on men to protect you or have the wisdom to know what is best.
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Also got to wonder if the DP is opposed in modern society because of demographic imbalances. I'd be interested to see statistics on crimes committed that would have traditionally merited the DP, and see whether such crimes are committed more by those of certain demographics than by those of other demographics.
Might be some political correctness going on there.
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Although many of people in the west disagree with the death penalty, it is my observation that it is not the majority.
It seems to me that rejection of capital punishment comes predominantly from “churchy” people, while down-to-earth Joe or Jane on the street agrees with it, either that or “locking them up for life and throwing away the key.
In either opinion, for or against, I believe there is little to no difference between the sexes.
Doing a search, this came up
(https://i.imgur.com/yoOt8Mo.png)
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Female, but I believe certain crimes deserve DP as their consequence. There was a time when any man discovered to be practicing fαɢɢօtry or anyone guilty of the sɛҳuąƖ abuse of children would be put to death. If the state didn’t impose the sentence, his fellow prisoners would set matters to rights.
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Today's news brings up gross injustice. This man, Robert Pickton, should have had the DP. He killed numerous people (confessed to 49.they could only prove six from the remains ID'd) and fed their bodies to his pigs. Reading initial reports back when, he made sausage etc and had barbeques for people.
Canada has banned consecutive sentences and now this SOB is eligible for parole...even though he expresses no remorse.
P.S. This man is worth millions from family holdings. Does money talk?
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/metro-vancouver-mayors-robert-pickton-not-get-parole
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton
(https://i.imgur.com/SxguEo1.png)
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Should Fr Rostand be eligible for the death penalty?
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Should Fr Rostand be eligible for the death penalty?
We don't know FACTS about what he did to make that judgement.
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Any one see the movie Nefarious? I think it touches on this topic. I think we have an interesting problem in today's society. The introduction of psychology without reference to God. This deluding of God's presence has made people more susceptible to demonic obsession. Thoughts? Do people who have been brained washed by media, deserve to die because they have fallen into grave sins without full consent? Many people are letting there emotions and imagination run the show. It is easier for people to be attacked when they are not using their intellect and will. Thoughs?
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The so-called "infinite dignity of man"?
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The so-called "infinite dignity of man"?
Don't know that term. I see the purpose in the death penalty, if everything was working in God's best interest (ie there is a Catholic Pope and they are actively condemning errors). It would give people a chance to reconcile before they meet their maker, but we have had 60 years of crazy and a whole bunch of new technology that has never been really talked about by the Church. Also we have been told that the demons were given more power during this time. Have you watched the movie Nefarious? We are in the midst of Spiritual warfare. A war you can't see. A war were the Angels, especially Guardian Angels are waiting for us to use them, by prayer and penance.
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Although many of people in the west disagree with the death penalty, it is my observation that it is not the majority.
It seems to me that rejection of capital punishment comes predominantly from “churchy” people, while down-to-earth Joe or Jane on the street agrees with it, either that or “locking them up for life and throwing away the key.
In either opinion, for or against, I believe there is little to no difference between the sexes.
Doing a search, this came up
(https://i.imgur.com/yoOt8Mo.png)
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Interesting. So people actually are generally in favor of it. Then where did it go? Why don't we have it anymore?
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.Interesting. So people actually are generally in favor of it. Then where did it go? Why don't we have it anymore?
Well, that’s what this survey proposes.
I asked my husband and he said (in brief) the lack of principles today is the cause of people opposing capital punishment.
A civilised society demands the possibility of applying the death penalty where necessary.
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Well, that’s what this survey proposes.
I asked my husband and he said (in brief) the lack of principles today is the cause of people opposing capital punishment.
A civilised society demands the possibility of applying the death penalty where necessary.
My husband says the same thing.
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I asked my husband and he said (in brief) the lack of principles today is the cause of people opposing capital punishment.
A civilised society demands the possibility of applying the death penalty where necessary.
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I dunno. My point in my main post was that capital punishment is not the result of intellectual principles but is a basic human instinct. That's why I don't understand where it has gone.
I also took pains to explain that it has always existed both in civilized and savage societies -- in fact, in every human society in human history before a couple of centuries ago. So I don't think it's really a question of civilization versus savagery.
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I dunno. My point in my main post was that capital punishment is not the result of intellectual principles but is a basic human instinct. That's why I don't understand where it has gone.
I also took pains to explain that it has always existed both in civilized and savage societies -- in fact, in every human society in human history before a couple of centuries ago. So I don't think it's really a question of civilization versus savagery.
He didn’t, and I don’t, mean intellectual principles. We mean moral principles. All men have moral principles. It is part of the natural law. Some choose to abandon them. Even convicted criminals know basic moral principles.
I am not sure how you would define “a savage society”.
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I think the biggest reason most "normal" people are against it is the concern that an innocent person might be found guilty and be put to death.
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Many of these issues point to women's suffrage here in the US. Once women had the right to vote here in the US, everything went downhill from there, including the election of politicians who are anti-death penalty.
Women tend to be more solidly anti-death penalty than men. The logic follows thus: All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. I have had quite few liberal Catholics tell me, "The death penalty is murder." Not true! The definition of murder is, "The intentional taking of an innocent human life." The far majority of the death row inmates are not innocent, and should the truth be known, many of those on death row who might be innocent of their alleged crimes, should be put to death for the crimes which they were never charged for.
I remember the Clinton years, and quite a few women told me they voted for Billy Boy because he was cute. This is insane, but when we look at the numbers of women in America who voted Clinton, there is probably a lot of truth in this. He is a smooth talker and he looks good, let us vote for him.
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Many of these issues point to women's suffrage here in the US. Once women had the right to vote here in the US, everything went downhill from there, including the election of politicians who are anti-death penalty.
Women tend to be more solidly anti-death penalty than men. The logic follows thus: All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. I have had quite few liberal Catholics tell me, "The death penalty is murder." Not true! The definition of murder is, "The intentional taking of an innocent human life." The far majority of the death row inmates are not innocent, and should the truth be known, many of those on death row who might be innocent of their alleged crimes, should be put to death for the crimes which they were never charged for.
I remember the Clinton years, and quite a few women told me they voted for Billy Boy because he was cute. This is insane, but when we look at the numbers of women in America who voted Clinton, there is probably a lot of truth in this. He is a smooth talker and he looks good, let us vote for him.
The US was heavily protestant during the suffrage movements. What did the death penalty do in Catholic countries?
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Yes Gray2023, America was predominantly Protestant at the time of women's suffrage, but the question should be, Did Catholic countries allow female suffrage too, and if so, did this fact affect their death penalty positions? Every Catholic country in Europe had the death penalty, England, Spain, France, Italy, Germany (Bavaria), etc. England did away with the death penalty in 1965, and allowed female suffrage in 1928. This theme is a constant, allow the female vote and we open the door for effeminate judges, effeminate politicians, and effeminate policies. And "no death penalty" is very effeminate. Today the death penalty is non-existent in Europe; there is no 2nd Amendment in Europe (excluding Switzerland). Europe has lost the Faith.
Thirty years ago a Catholic girl here in my home city decided to write a newspaper piece about the horrors of bodily punishment. I reminded her that our Lord hit people with a whip in the Gospel of St. John, and, of course God is in favor of capital punishment. He allowed it in the Old Testament and said nothing in the New Testament about its abolition. This girl followed her immature logic as a seventh grader, and I would bet that she is still doing so.
Here is a list of countries which have allowed female suffrage by year: http://archive.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm (http://archive.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm)
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While I do not oppose the death penalty for many crimes in principle, I truly wonder how much we can trust the judicial system...at least in the United States. Over the past few years it seems that governments at every level--national, State, municipal, county, etc.--have shown that they are absolutely willing to falsify evidence in order to get the outcomes they desire. While many police officers are honest, many have been shown to be corrupt. Prosecutors, for the most part, don't prosecute crimes out of a sense of justice but, rather, for political reasons. The corruption of laws demonstrates that there are many judges are willing to cut down every law necessary according to their ideological desires. Any any prospective juror who may actually know any person involved in a case and know their honesty or lack thereof will be automatically dismissed from the case.
If I don't think I can trust a public school principal to properly administer corporal punishment to children (and I can't), how can I trust other public servants to execute a convict?
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Yes Gray2023, America was predominantly Protestant at the time of women's suffrage, but the question should be, Did Catholic countries allow female suffrage too, and if so, did this fact affect their death penalty positions? Every Catholic country in Europe had the death penalty, England, Spain, France, Italy, Germany (Bavaria), etc. England did away with the death penalty in 1965, and allowed female suffrage in 1928. This theme is a constant, allow the female vote and we open the door for effeminate judges, effeminate politicians, and effeminate policies. And "no death penalty" is very effeminate. Today the death penalty is non-existent in Europe; there is no 2nd Amendment in Europe (excluding Switzerland). Europe has lost the Faith.
Thirty years ago a Catholic girl here in my home city decided to write a newspaper piece about the horrors of bodily punishment. I reminded her that our Lord hit people with a whip in the Gospel of St. John, and, of course God is in favor of capital punishment. He allowed it in the Old Testament and said nothing in the New Testament about its abolition. This girl followed her immature logic as a seventh grader, and I would bet that she is still doing so.
Here is a list of countries which have allowed female suffrage by year: http://archive.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm (http://archive.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm)
I think you have an interesting point. The society has become effeminate. But is it because of the women (taking over), the men (letting them), both, or something else? Maybe if we reestablish a good Catholic society these things would go back to the way God intended. For now I guess we just have to muddle through this world with our strong Catholic principles.
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I think you have an interesting point. The society has become effeminate. But is it because of the women (taking over), the men (letting them), both, or something else? Maybe if we reestablish a good Catholic society these things would go back to the way God intended. For now I guess we just have to muddle through this world with our strong Catholic principles.
It was an orchestrated plan by the Jiu's and haters of Christian Societies. It was a direct attack on the family unit because they knew that was the backbone of society.
They started by pulling men away from their homes and into industrial and factory type jobs instead of working at their homesteads and making productive property and family businesses, etc.
Then with the orchestrated World Wars they started to get women into the workforce and pulled them away from the home. Now with jobs co-ed there would always be occasions of sin and adultery which breaks family bonds.
Then the current "Edjewcation" system was set up and established to get the kids out of the home and brainwash kids with the anti-Christian garbage you see today.
It was a gradual and purposeful dismantling of society, piecemeal to break family bonds so they can be owned by the state. I believe it will be fixed someday with the Catholic Restoration but when that happens is unknown.
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Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
This article may be of interest to you and the others in this thread: "The Death Penalty Abolition Movement and Modernism". (https://parmenidean.is/wp/?p=541)
To summarize its basic argument, the first nation in modern times to abolish the death penalty was Tuscany back in the late 1700s. It was done under the reign of Grand Duke Leopold II, who was also a enthusiastic patron of the heretical Synod of Pistoia. Both these acts sprang from his deeply liberal (in the "Enlightenment" sense) sentiments; thus religious and political modernism were intertwined, and we see the same story today.
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This article may be of interest to you and the others in this thread: "The Death Penalty Abolition Movement and Modernism". (https://parmenidean.is/wp/?p=541)
To summarize its basic argument, the first nation in modern times to abolish the death penalty was Tuscany back in the late 1700s. It was done under the reign of Grand Duke Leopold II, who was also a enthusiastic patron of the heretical Synod of Pistoia. Both these acts sprang from his deeply liberal (in the "Enlightenment" sense) sentiments; thus religious and political modernism were intertwined, and we see the same story today.
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Interesting. This is a very good contribution to the discussion. So it comes from liberalism. That's not a surprise, I guess.
That's an interesting website, too. Do you know who writes it?
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Interesting. This is a very good contribution to the discussion. So it comes from liberalism. That's not a surprise, I guess.
That's an interesting website, too. Do you know who writes it?
Thank you!
Though of course it is important to understand how feminism and other modern errors have contributed to this problem, I think that we must look into its origins in order to truly analyze it.
You can find out more about that website by visiting the thread here on CI named after it.
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There is no dogmatic reason to oppose the death penalty, but there is an important practical reason to oppose the death penalty: .gov/.ZOG messes up… a lot!
Here's a false accusation that—Thank God!—ended well.
South Carolinian faced 115 years in prison until ATF admitted they got the wrong man
https://thegunwriter.substack.com/p/south-carolinian-faced-115-years
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There is no dogmatic reason to oppose the death penalty, but there is an important practical reason to oppose the death penalty: .gov/.ZOG messes up… a lot!
Here's a false accusation that—Thank God!—ended well.
South Carolinian faced 115 years in prison until ATF admitted they got the wrong man
https://thegunwriter.substack.com/p/south-carolinian-faced-115-years
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But it has always been the case that an innocent man could theoretically be wrongfully convicted, and this has never been put forward as a reason to avoid the death penalty until modern times when people started trying to come up with reasons not to put people to death.