Well, I've just this over and over again how Siri was a coward ... but it's easy to do from one's armchair.  I

Could it be that the Holy Ghost stopped his mouth, because God was ready to punish the world by allowing a monstrous persecution of the Church? 

And also, he was never sworn in, correct? Would the Assistance of the Holy Ghost come upon him from the moment of election, or only after he had taken his oath? Was he come to full term, or was Siri an abortion?

Yes, you're right. I did misuse the term, if the Novus Ordo is not in fact a new religion. But you are also insisting that he held the Catholic faith whole and entire when his external acts show differently.

I'm just holding him to the same standards of the rest of the Novus Ordo hierarchy. If they are material heretics because they adhere to the New Religion, then so is Siri. +Lefebvre denounced V2 and the Novus Ordo, as did many others, but not Siri, so based on his actions I see someone who adhered to the Whore of Babylon.

We can speculate all day on what motivated him and whatnot. But his external acts speak otherwise.

I'm sorry Lad, but you have this penchant for discovering some conspiracy and holding to it with dogmatic vigor even when the evidence is lacking, like in this case.

I just wonder if the evidence is so strong that Cardinal Siri was elected.  I think it’s almost self evident that someone was elected and then sidelined in order to have an invalid election of Roncalli. If it were me I wouldn’t choose to elect the Cardinal that everyone was looking to be elected to be the guy to sideline.  If I want to disappear a Pope into obscurity I pick a more obscure candidate for that position and use Cardinal Siri as a red herring.  Who that could have been idk, for my part most of the other Cardinals that I couldn’t even name to save my life would have worked.

I just wonder if the evidence is so strong that Cardinal Siri was elected.  I think it’s almost self evident that someone was elected and then sidelined in order to have an invalid election of Roncalli. If it were me I wouldn’t choose to elect the Cardinal that everyone was looking to be elected to be the guy to sideline.  If I want to disappear a Pope into obscurity I pick a more obscure candidate for that position and use Cardinal Siri as a red herring.  Who that could have been idk, for my part most of the other Cardinals that I couldn’t even name to save my life would have worked.

Yes, I agree.  I think the white smoke implies something happened there, but how/why do we "know" it was Siri?  Why is it so clear that *he* was elected/how do we know without a doubt that he was elected? 

Yes, I agree.  I think the white smoke implies something happened there, but how/why do we "know" it was Siri?  Why is it so clear that *he* was elected/how do we know without a doubt that he was elected?

I’ll try to find the evidence.  All the sources indicate that it was Siri.  Paul Williams asserted that the CIA/FBI had sources in the conclave who even told them that he took the name Gregory XVII.  But multiple sources indicate that it was Siri.  Numerous sources also indicate that Siri led the early ballots of even the 1978 conclave that brought us Luciani.

If the only evidence was the white smoke, I wouldn’t be convinced ... since by itself they could have botched the procedure to generate the smoke.

Could it be that the Holy Ghost stopped his mouth, because God was ready to punish the world by allowing a monstrous persecution of the Church?

And also, he was never sworn in, correct? Would the Assistance of the Holy Ghost come upon him from the moment of election, or only after he had taken his oath? Was he come to full term, or was Siri an abortion?

He accepted the office or else there would have not been the white smoke. There is no oath of office in the political sense

But, even so, that's not evidence that it had to be Siri.  If we were to liken this to a criminal case, we would need evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt.  Hearsay and conjecture isn't enough.

Yes. After looking at the evidence proposing that it was Cardinal Siri and the people claiming that he had a successor; I lean in the direction that it was not Cardinal Siri and that this was disinformation put out by those who carried out the scheme.

Williams' information is way too detailed to ignore.

Williams says that on the third ballot, Siri was elected and chose the name Gregory XVII.  What he doesn't quite get, not being Catholic, is that a papal name isn't chosen until one has accepted the election.

Williams then says that despite his being threatened into changing his mind, on the fouth ballot Siri again had the votes to be elected pope.  So the Cardinals were insistent upon Siri, despite his (probably to them mysterious) acceptance and then refusal.  According to Williams then, after the fourth ballot, the French Cardinals "annulled the results" [not sure how they would have done that ... maybe saying that he's already refused to accept once].  Then after that they elected Tedeschini as a compromise candidate, but he did not accept due to his age and ill health.  Then finally, on the fourth day, they rolled out Roncalli.  Roncalli too was said to be a compromise candidate do to HIS age and poor health, but he lasted long enough to appoint Montini a cardinal, call Vatican II, and suppress the Third Secret.

Many have said that Pius XII was slowly poisoned to death, as they wanted to get rid of him before 1960, when the Third Secret was to have been revealed.

Williams is an interesting source.  This information is way too detailed to be dismissed as just fiction.  Also, it appears in a footnote in his book and is mentioned just in passing.  If he were fabricating it, it would seem to me that he would have emphasized it more rather than burying it in a footnote.  Initially he listed the specific declassified docuмents in the footnote, but at some point tons of people were contacting him about it and in a later edition he changed it to just "FBI Source".  I myself paid a visit to the National Archives in an attempt to find the docuмents, but they were nowhere to be found.  Probably de-de-classified by then and removed from the National Archives.  I just don't believe Williams simply made that up, given the detail in there, about what happened on each ballot, about the papal name Gregory XVII, about the subsquent election of Tedeschini (which Scortesco confrimed).  Perhaps one day these docuмents will see the light of day ... if they haven't been destroyed.

It is absolutely absurd to claim that there's no evidence.  Uncharacteristically of you, you've latched onto a contempt for Siri because he accepted Vatican II and the NOM and you are filtering out the evidence, which is substantial and real.  This is NOT just a fanciful narrative based on the smoke signals.

I already said that I agree that it appears he was elected in 1958. Must I keep repeating that? There is no contempt here.

But 2V brings up some good points here related to our sources:

But, even so, that's not evidence that it had to be Siri.  If we were to liken this to a criminal case, we would need evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt.  Hearsay and conjecture isn't enough.

As to contextualize the uncharacteristic rejection of some points of this: in the past few weeks I've become increasingly disturbed  by the traditionalist adherence to some form of conspiracy-gnosticism. As if your trad cred relies on what level of gnosis you've attained by acceptance of various cօռspιʀαcιҽs. It's become absurd and entirely vexing.

These came to mind today during Mass:
"And I have given my heart to know prudence, and learning, and errors, and folly: and I have perceived that in these also there was labour, and vexation of spirit," [Ecclesiastes 1:17]

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Timothy 4:3]