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Author Topic: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII  (Read 11739 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2022, 02:29:04 PM »
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  • Great.  That's your interpretation for which you have no proof.  That has no impact to whether or not he was the legitimate pope.

    And it's easy for you to sit in you easy chair with a beer and declare someone a coward, when you have absolutely no idea whether given the types of threats he was facing you'd buckle as well.  He had a large extended family.  What if someone told you step down as pope and shut up, or else we'll start murdering, kidnapping, and torturing your nieces and newphews.  Or we're going to round up and execute every single priest behind the Iron curtain unless you comply.  Or we're going to nuke the Vatican and a bunch of majority-Catholic cities.  Sure, he should have trusted God and gone ahead with it, but for you to sit here and judge him a coward from your easy chair, just shut the hell up.  God alone is his judge, not you.
    .

    Sorry, I didn't mean to get you riled up like that. Yeah, I do agree that the Siri thesis provides some possible answers to how the crisis in the Church got started, and the white smoke is pretty suspicious. It's certainly hard to see how a real pope could have acted the way John 23 did. All things considered, I do think it's quite likely Siri was elected in the 1958 conclave more likely than not. The rest of the discussion, though, such as why he stepped down, or his subsequent years, is pretty speculative.

    Have a good weekend, Lad. :cowboy:


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #61 on: May 28, 2022, 02:30:59 PM »
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  • Acc to H Mann( Lives Popes) there is a dispute re Stephen II whom he describes as ' elected but not consecrated'... thereby rendering him as true or not true Il Papa acc to whom one agrees w/...

    This sounds very similar to Siri election..:popcorn:
    .

    If I'm thinking about the same case as you, he was on his deathbed when he was elected pope. He was not yet consecrated a bishop, and he probably couldn't even get out of bed long enough to receive episcopal consecration. He was dead just a couple of weeks after being elected.

    It's a strange case, but in 2,000 years almost everything is bound to happen at one point or another.

    I see no similarity between his case and that of Cardinal Siri, though.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #62 on: May 28, 2022, 02:37:18 PM »
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  • Sorry, I didn't mean to get you riled up like that.

    Well, I've just this over and over again how Siri was a coward ... but it's easy to do from one's armchair.  If I were elected Pope, and they told me that if I accepted they would murder my entire family, my wife and children, I'd like to think that I would refuse to give in to their demands, but then 1) this isn't the same as denying the faith and most "good" popes were rather reluctant to accept the election even without outside pressure, and 2) I can't say without being in that situation what I would do.  It's just like I'd like to think that I wouldn't deny the faith under extreme torture, but the best I can say is that I would hope God gives me the grace not to do so.  I wouldn't presume on it.

    One might also think that, well, God's Providence governs the Church, and He'll take care of the Church.  God clearly wished to allow Vatican II to happen.  But we should leave it to God to judge Cardinal Siri, and it's not really pertinent to the question of whether he was legitimately elected, so I'm not going to sit here attacking Siri.

    God also willed for us to be alive during this Crisis.  We can complain about it, and I do, since so many souls are being lost, but God put us here for a reason.  We're living through a kind of dry martyrdom during this Crisis.  Just as God allowed some Christians to be born under the time of blood martyrdom, so He's chosen to have us be born during this time, and He intends it to be for our sanctification.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #63 on: May 28, 2022, 03:30:55 PM »
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  • Quote
    "The selection of the true Pope, according to the prophets, will be: a) almost miraculous; b) soon after the terrible war and revolutions; c) the selectors will assemble under many difficulties; d) some prophets foretell the intervention of Saints Peter and Paul and angels..." -Fr. Culleton, The Prophets and Our Times 1941 A.D. (Imprimatur)

    Quote
    "I see the Holy Father in great distress. He lives in another palace and receives only a few in his presence. If the wicked party know their own great strength, they would even now have made an attack. I fear the Holy Father will suffer many tribulations before his death, for I see the black counterfeit church gaining ground, I see its fatal influence on the public. The distress of the Holy Father and of the Church is really so great that one ought to pray to God day and night. I have been told to pray much for the Church and the Pope...The people must pray earnestly for the extirpation (Rooting out, destruction) of the dark church." -Prophetic Vision of Anne Catherine Emmerich (1774-1824 A.D.) Augustinian Nun, Stigmatist from the book, The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich, by Very Rev. Carl E. Schmoger, C.SS.R, Vol. ii, pages (Ibid, pages 292-293)

    Quote
    Quote
    (Prophecy of Ven. Bernard de Bustis, 15th c.): "...near the time of the Antichrist, will come... a most violent conflict with the Roman Church such that there will be great tribulations. At this time, a schism will be produced in the bosom of the Church on the occasion of the election of the pope... there is one who will be called the true pope, but he will not be truly so. He will persecute the true pope and all those who obey him, so that the majority will declare themselves for the antipope rather than for the true pope. But this antipope will have a sad end, and the true one will remain the unique and uncontested pontiff. ..."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #64 on: May 28, 2022, 03:43:01 PM »
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  • Quote
    "The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts so new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatise from the faith, drive away the Vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism. ...Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible hidden in catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth. Such is the universal testimony of the Fathers of the early Church."

    -Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, The Present Crisis of the Holy See, 1861




    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #65 on: May 28, 2022, 03:51:26 PM »
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  • Franco Bellegrandi from his book Nikita Roncalli:

    Quote
    In September 1958, about seven or 
    eight days before the Conclave, I was at the Sanctuary of
    Orope, attending one of the usual dinners at Attilio Botto’s,
    a Biellese industrialist who fancied gathering around him
    competent from various branches, to discuss the different
    issues. That day had been invited a character I knew as a
    high Masonic authority in contact with the Vatican. He told
    me, driving me home, that “. . .The next Pope would not be
    Siri, as it was murmured in some Roman circles, because
    he was too authoritarian a cardinal. They would elect a
    Pope of conciliation. The choice has already fallen on the
    patriarch of Venice Roncalli. “Chosen by whom?” I
    rejoined surprised. “By our Masonic representatives in the
    Conclave,” responded placidly my kind escort. And then it
    escaped me:

    ’’There are freemasons in the Conclave?” “Certainly,”
    was the reply, “the Church is in our hands.” I rejoined
    perplexed: “Who, then, is in charge in the Church?” After a
    brief pause, the voice of my escort uttered precisely: “No
    one can say where the upper echelons are. The echelons are
    occult.”





    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #66 on: May 28, 2022, 04:10:49 PM »
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  • Maybe. He still fell into heresy by supporting and enforcing the Vatican II sect, therefore, losing any papal authority he may have had.
    After much deliberation, I rescind my statement here. I still have much skepticism of the actions of Siri after the 1958 conclave, but it's clear that he was indeed elected.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Sir Percival

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #67 on: May 28, 2022, 04:49:06 PM »
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  • Siri theory pushers remind me of resignationists.

    Benedict XVI: I’m not Pope.

    Resignationist: The heck you aren’t. Yes, you are.

    Benedict XVI: No, I’m not.

    :fryingpan:

    Siri pusher: Siri was the Pope! It was so clear.

    Siri: https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A441-Siri2.html
    “How can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matt. 15:14]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you.”

    Pope Urban II


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #68 on: May 28, 2022, 05:09:49 PM »
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  • After much deliberation, I rescind my statement here. I still have much skepticism of the actions of Siri after the 1958 conclave, but it's clear that he was indeed elected.
    How did you go from writing what "may have happened in the 1958 conclave" to "it's clear he was indeed elected" in a matter of 24 hours?  What was said to convince you he was in fact elected?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #69 on: May 28, 2022, 05:35:27 PM »
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  • How did you go from writing what "may have happened in the 1958 conclave" to "it's clear he was indeed elected" in a matter of 24 hours?  What was said to convince you he was in fact elected?
    Review of the facts surrounding the conclave. That still doesn't excuse his accepting V2 and saying the Novus Ordo, and whether he still would've fallen from the papacy through apostasy; but the facts remain that he was elected and then was pressured into abdicating the 1958 conclave. The subsequent claims about the other conclaves are dubious. I already had some acceptance of the thesis.

    It's not different from what I originally said, just rejecting the conclusion that he must have been a heretic post-Vatican 2
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #70 on: May 28, 2022, 06:35:45 PM »
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  • I have read about the "Siri thesis", and I think it's a foregone conclusion that he was elected in the conclave, but what was supposed to be so terrible (in the eyes of his enemies) about Siri being Pope, that would prompt such dire threats and blackmail?  What was he going to do that Pius XII had not already done?  To whom did he pose such a threat?  If nuclear war were on the table, the Soviets were the only ones who would have had this capability, and would have had a reason to be threatened.  Or, for some reason, did the US not want him to be elected (Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?), and they would have been the ones to use the nukes?  Against Italy, an ostensible ally?

    Or was it more a case of "because he's not Roncalli"?  Because the enemies of the Church wanted Roncalli, and that Siri's election thwarted their plans? 
    According to Mary Ball Martinez, Roncalli was elected solely as a place holder for Montini. His assignment was to make Montini a cardinal. Maybe Siri would have thwarted that most essential part of the plan. Montini was the sole designate of the Jєωιѕн mob, tasked with bringing VII to completion and implementation. He was trained for this assignment from his youth, and perhaps, in a sense and through his parents, before his birth.

    You can discern from the historical record that Pacelli was not tasked to bring the chickens home to roost. He was a multi-generational, long game player, softening the hierarchy, arranging things in the background, mostly without detection. Perhaps his most important assignment of all was to prevent the collegial consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart. An unbiased reading of Frere Michel quite lends itself to that hypothesis. Pacelli and Roncalli belong to the order of termites, while Montini belongs to the order of the zionist bulldozers.

    Do not the facts that Siri was sidelined, and then died "in exile," create an entirely different reason why the Chair of St. Peter is vacant? Juridically, he has no successor. Only Roncalli, who stole the office, has successors.

    Again, I truly believe that all de facto authority on earth today is derived not from the Father of Lights or from the Natural Law, but from usurpation. 


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #71 on: May 28, 2022, 06:44:20 PM »
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  • Is it incuмbent upon the Church to know with certainty and proof that Cardinal Siri or someone else was elected Pope and sidelined or is it enough to be able to point to promulgated heresy of claimants since death of Pope Pius XII as proof that now at this point the Church lacks a Pope? The Truth as perennially taught by the Church should be in itself a bulwark against this kind of fraudulent usurpation, no?
    I think we have to point to a long game strategy, beginning with Benedict XV, which rotted out the hierarchy from within, so that when the designated bulldozer came into his usurped power, the Church (read:hierarchy) would already be long undone, and hence incapable of acting:

    See Isaias 3: For behold the sovereign the Lord of hosts shall take away from Jerusalem, and from Juda the valiant and the strong, the whole strength of bread, and the whole strength of water. The strong man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the cunning man, and the ancient. The captain over fifty, and the honourable in countenance, and the counsellor, and the architect, and the skillful in eloquent speech. And I will give children to be their princes, and the effeminate shall rule over them. And the people shall rush one upon another, and every man against his neighbour: the child shall make it tumult against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #72 on: May 28, 2022, 06:49:49 PM »
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  • I find the Siri case very compelling but the Benedict argument weak ... and I'll come back to that later.
    Juridically, BXI is a usurper; and the successor of the successor of the successor of the successor of the first usurper. He's a dog in a world of dogs eating other dogs.

    Sancte Petre! Ora pro nobis!!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #73 on: May 28, 2022, 07:00:20 PM »
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  • That still doesn't excuse his accepting V2 and saying the Novus Ordo, and whether he still would've fallen from the papacy through apostasy ...

    Excuse?  No.  But it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he was the legitimate pope.  Then you use the term "apostasy" incorrectly, and you continue to charge Siri with heresy without any evidence.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #74 on: May 28, 2022, 07:01:51 PM »
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  • .
    An oath whose purpose is to destroy the Church would obviously not be binding. In fact, it would be a sin to observe it. This is not only common sense, it is something explicitly taught to children in 1st Communion catechism class. To say that a cardinal did not know this is absurd.

    This is probably the most difficult angle of the Siri thesis. I don't know of any version of it in which Siri doesn't come out as the worst coward since Pontius Pilate. At least Pontius Pilate could claim he was a simple pagan and didn't know that Christ was God, and was threatened with his life. But Siri was threatened as a cardinal of the Catholic Church and caved in, -- as pope, no less, the vicar of Christ, with the most powerful graces of state of any human being on this planet -- and consented to hand over the reins of the Church to its worst enemies, who were psychopathic mass murderers (if you believe the hydrogen-bomb-over-Rome theory), and allowed them to take over the Church?! A cardinal, who not only had (presumably) the virtue of Faith, and should have believed that God would triumph over His enemies, but also had almost 2,000 years of history behind him to see that the Church had overcome countless such attacks and persecutions and would easily triumph over this one again? How could he think it would be a good idea to allow people threatening mass murder and/or schism to take the papacy from him?

    On a certain level, I don't think it matters much whether he or Roncalli won that election. I think either one was just as bad.

    And if I had to choose to be in the eternal shoes of either Pontius Pilate or Cardinal Siri, I'd choose Pontius Pilate, since he was less responsible for his actions.
    I have no opinion on the Siri controversy, except I believe he was elected, and then bullied to step aside. What I do find interesting is the parallel with our Lord's Passion. Jesus was "elected Pope," or "crowned as King," by the Jєωs on Palm Sunday; and immediately they implemented their plan to kill Him. 

    You can see the 33-year long game where they plotted His death, beginning with Herod (read:generations-long plan to capture the papacy); and then when the time was ripe - just as He was proclaimed King - they struck, and they succeeded in having Him executed as a criminal (read:election of Roncalli/VII). 

    The most characteristic feature of Our Lord during His Passion, and especially with regard to the false accusations and unjust judges He encountered, is His silence. 

    Christ met them with silence, and allowed them the apparent victory. 

    It's just what we see now, only instead of three days, we are suffering this silence for decades. What an excruciating chastisement has befallen us.