Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII  (Read 11714 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 41847
  • Reputation: +23909/-4344
  • Gender: Male
Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2022, 09:55:32 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, Siri IS the answer to the mystery of iniquity in the Church, the Pope who suffers much. We also will never know until it is revealed what horrors he was threatened with if he spoke truthfully to rightfully  ascend to his Papacy. Millions killed by nuclear weapons and sent to Hell? Rome bombed, family murdered? Even if he should have risen above these things in faith and claimed his rightful position, we can't actually fathom what he faced.
    Siri can be accused as having a lack of courage and moral weakness, but that doesn't disqualify his valid election. As he never implemented His Papacy, any "heresies" attributed to him, which I doubt there are, are moot at this point.

    Exactly.  None of the personal attacks against +Siri have anything to do with whether he canonically held papal office.


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10051
    • Reputation: +5251/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #16 on: May 27, 2022, 04:40:57 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • He's different because as the legitimate pope his Magisterium would have been protected by the Holy Spirit.  God would not allow a legitimate pope to teach error.  But an imposter doesn't have the same protections.  This really isn't that difficult.
    Your condescending attitude really isn't that helpful.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline josefamenendez

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4421
    • Reputation: +2946/-199
    • Gender: Female
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #17 on: May 27, 2022, 07:51:41 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, how is he any different than any of the other Vatican II "popes"?  And if he isn't any different, then how is he "the answer" or "the key"?
    He wasn't a Vll Pope- in fact he was the antithesis to Vll. He was elected in 1958, before the Council, and I daresay that Vll most likely would have never happened, or at least never have taken the freemasonic/ judaic turn had Pope Gregory XVll been seated in Rome. So removing him from the Papacy and seating anti-popes was key to the destruction of the (consilliar) Church.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4379
    • Reputation: +1626/-194
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #18 on: May 27, 2022, 08:07:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, Siri IS the answer to the mystery of iniquity in the Church, the Pope who suffers much. We also will never know until it is revealed what horrors he was threatened with if he spoke truthfully to rightfully  ascend to his Papacy. Millions killed by nuclear weapons and sent to Hell? Rome bombed, family murdered? Even if he should have risen above these things in faith and claimed his rightful position, we can't actually fathom what he faced.
    Siri can be accused as having a lack of courage and moral weakness, but that doesn't disqualify his valid election. As he never implemented His Papacy, any "heresies" attributed to him, which I doubt there are, are moot at this point.

    I have read about the "Siri thesis", and I think it's a foregone conclusion that he was elected in the conclave, but what was supposed to be so terrible (in the eyes of his enemies) about Siri being Pope, that would prompt such dire threats and blackmail?  What was he going to do that Pius XII had not already done?   To whom did he pose such a threat?  If nuclear war were on the table, the Soviets were the only ones who would have had this capability, and would have had a reason to be threatened.  Or, for some reason, did the US not want him to be elected (Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?), and they would have been the ones to use the nukes?  Against Italy, an ostensible ally?

    Or was it more a case of "because he's not Roncalli"?  Because the enemies of the Church wanted Roncalli, and that Siri's election thwarted their plans?  

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41847
    • Reputation: +23909/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #19 on: May 27, 2022, 08:13:24 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Your condescending attitude really isn't that helpful.

    Yeah, maybe.  But nothing else would be "helpful" in your case either.  You have these emotional reactions (and therefore won't consider rationally) anything that doesn't fit in with your straight sedevacantist viewpoint, from your animosity right out of the gate against Archbishop Vigano, your railing against sedeprivationism, and now this.  You won't think in terms of distinctions, and that's the key to your thinking on all these issues.  You only think in binaries.  Either someone is the pope or he isn't, vs. he can be a pope in one respect but not another.  +Vigano bad because he hasn't declard the Holy See vacant and he used to belong to the Conciliar hierarchy ... and similarly with +Siri.

    Not everyone who belongs to the Conciliar Church is a formal heretic, and it is possible to be elected to or designated to office before being able to formally excercise its authority.  If a layman were elected and accepted, he'd be legitimate holder of the office at that moment, but he could not actually exercise the teaching authority of the office without being ordained and then consecrated.  That distinction can actually be found in St. Robert Bellarmine.

    But anything that doesn't fit in with your simplistic vision of Novus Ordo bad and See vacant, you reject and rail against without making any rational arguments, and then when others present them you ignore them or filter them out.

    So it's gotten to the point that I don't really need to be "helpful", since you don't want to be "helped" ... in other words, you refuse to think outside of your own personal conclusions and there's no real point discussing these matters with you.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41847
    • Reputation: +23909/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #20 on: May 27, 2022, 08:19:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have read about the "Siri thesis", and I think it's a foregone conclusion that he was elected in the conclave, but what was supposed to be so terrible (in the eyes of his enemies) about Siri being Pope, that would prompt such dire threats and blackmail?  What was he going to do that Pius XII had not already done?  To whom did he pose such a threat?  If nuclear war were on the table, the Soviets were the only ones who would have had this capability, and would have had a reason to be threatened.  Or, for some reason, did the US not want him to be elected (Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?), and they would have been the ones to use the nukes?  Against Italy, an ostensible ally?

    Or was it more a case of "because he's not Roncalli"?  Because the enemies of the Church wanted Roncalli, and that Siri's election thwarted their plans? 

    Right, I don't think it was about Siri per se, but, rather, the enemies wanted to plant THEIR guy in the papacy so they could set about wrecking the Church.  I'm convinced that Roncalli was a conscious agent of these destroyers.  There's one story where Roncalli, on the way to the conclave, told someone that he was going to be elected pope.  Pretty much everyone knew beforehand that +Siri was going to be elected, and he was, just as expected.  So they could have intimidated him before he was elected and accepted, but they waited until he was elected and accepted, to illegitimately force him out of the office, his resignation having been invalid due to the extreme duress.  Since a legitimately-elected pope would have been prevented by the Holy Ghost from wrecking the Church in any official way, and this was a brilliant way to bypass that protection.

    Offline josefamenendez

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4421
    • Reputation: +2946/-199
    • Gender: Female
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #21 on: May 27, 2022, 08:46:26 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The time for the destruction of the Church was possible-in 1960 as Sister Lucy alluded to, the inception of the Council. Siri was the "choice" of Pope Pius Xll and he was legitimately elected Pope, and received the grace of the Office. The freemasonic judaic movement against the papacy could only happen if there was A: an actual Pope that received the grace of the Office, and B: An unelected anti-pope who did NOT have the grace of the office as Pope Gregory had received it , in order to implement the destruction of the Papacy and the Church as a whole, a usurpation which could only happen by evil men not encuмbered by the Holy Ghost protecting the papacy.

    If there was not a true Pope hidden, the papacy, even a freemasonic or luciferian would still have received the grace of the Office. This was true with Pope Pius lX, who was the choice of liberals and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, but did a 180 after he was elevated to the Holy See. The evil ones could not again risk a validly elected Pope, even one of their choice, that would receive that Grace promised by Christ.
    Hence Anti-popes, not validly elected as there was already a legitimate Pope in place, that were free to be as destructive as they were instructed to be.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2232
    • Reputation: +829/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #22 on: May 27, 2022, 11:02:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If Siri's resignation was not valid, then he would have remained pope, since he was canonically elected, correct? Sort of like Benevacantism . . . Sirivacantism. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Cryptinox

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1149
    • Reputation: +248/-91
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #23 on: May 27, 2022, 11:23:26 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    Of course. And it is a general rule that a person in authority consents to something that happens under his authority, which it is his duty to control. So a bishop or cardinal has a duty to preach publicly the Catholic faith and condemn error. Therefore, if he remains silent in the presence of widespread error masquerading as the Catholic faith, he is presumed to consent to that error.
    Cardinal Siri publicly criticized Vatican II. He even called it the "worst mistake in history" or something like that.

    Offline Melanie

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 96
    • Reputation: +50/-27
    • Gender: Female
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #24 on: May 27, 2022, 11:26:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is it incuмbent upon the Church to know with certainty and proof that Cardinal Siri or someone else was elected Pope and sidelined or is it enough to be able to point to promulgated heresy of claimants since death of Pope Pius XII as proof that now at this point the Church lacks a Pope? The Truth as perennially taught by the Church should be in itself a bulwark against this kind of fraudulent usurpation, no?

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2232
    • Reputation: +829/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #25 on: May 27, 2022, 11:29:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  The Truth as perennially taught by the Church should be in itself a bulwark against this kind of fraudulent usurpation, no?

    A good point.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41847
    • Reputation: +23909/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #26 on: May 27, 2022, 11:42:34 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • If Siri's resignation was not valid, then he would have remained pope, since he was canonically elected, correct? Sort of like Benevacantism . . . Sirivacantism.

    I think there's some difference in emphasis, in terms of what made the resignation invalid in each case, but essentially yes.

    Siri:  Canon Law states that resignations made under duress are invalid.  So if you held a gun to a bishop's head and said, "resign," and he complied, the Church would still consider him the bishop.  I'm sure there's some interpretation regarding the level of duress required.  I'm sure mild duress would not count and may be considered persuasion rather than compulsion.

    Benedict:  most Bennyvacantists are focused on the "formula" of resignation, that he secretly didn't want to resign and so he flubbed up the formula required for legitimate resignation.

    I find the Siri case very compelling but the Benedict argument weak ... and I'll come back to that later.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2232
    • Reputation: +829/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #27 on: May 27, 2022, 11:54:49 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think there's some difference in emphasis, in terms of what made the resignation invalid in each case, but essentially yet.

    Siri:  Canon Law states that resignations made under duress are invalid.  So if you held a gun to a bishop's head and said, "resign," and he complied, the Church would still consider him the bishop.  I'm sure there's some interpretation regarding the level of duress required.  I'm sure mild duress would not count and may be considered persuasion rather than compulsion.

    Benedict:  most Bennyvacantists are focused on the "formula" of resignation, that he secretly didn't want to resign and so he flubbed up the formula required for legitimate resignation.

    I find the Siri case very compelling but the Benedict argument weak ... and I'll come back to that later.

    Would he not then have lost the papacy afterwards through heresy or, at the least, schism by being joined to the "Conciliar sect," celebrating the NO, etc.?

    And then what?

    And what about when he died, even if he retained the papacy despite the above?

    I question where the Sirivacantist theory gets us.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10051
    • Reputation: +5251/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #28 on: May 27, 2022, 12:19:37 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeah, maybe.  But nothing else would be "helpful" in your case either.  You have these emotional reactions (and therefore won't consider rationally) anything that doesn't fit in with your straight sedevacantist viewpoint, from your animosity right out of the gate against Archbishop Vigano, your railing against sedeprivationism, and now this.  You won't think in terms of distinctions, and that's the key to your thinking on all these issues.  You only think in binaries.  Either someone is the pope or he isn't, vs. he can be a pope in one respect but not another.  +Vigano bad because he hasn't declard the Holy See vacant and he used to belong to the Conciliar hierarchy ... and similarly with +Siri.

    Not everyone who belongs to the Conciliar Church is a formal heretic, and it is possible to be elected to or designated to office before being able to formally excercise its authority.  If a layman were elected and accepted, he'd be legitimate holder of the office at that moment, but he could not actually exercise the teaching authority of the office without being ordained and then consecrated.  That distinction can actually be found in St. Robert Bellarmine.

    But anything that doesn't fit in with your simplistic vision of Novus Ordo bad and See vacant, you reject and rail against without making any rational arguments, and then when others present them you ignore them or filter them out.

    So it's gotten to the point that I don't really need to be "helpful", since you don't want to be "helped" ... in other words, you refuse to think outside of your own personal conclusions and there's no real point discussing these matters with you.
    Gee you sound a bit emotional there Lad!

    I never said I was against the Siri Theory, but I'm not convinced either.  I tend to agree with DL. So I was asking a legit question.  You chose to respond condescendingly.

    But I'm not surprised at your railing against my positions even if you weren't completely accurate.  It's not the first time and it won't be the last.  Same ole same ole. :sleep:

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #29 on: May 27, 2022, 04:04:16 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Would he not then have lost the papacy afterwards through heresy or, at the least, schism by being joined to the "Conciliar sect," celebrating the NO, etc.?

    And then what?

    And what about when he died, even if he retained the papacy despite the above?

    I question where the Sirivacantist theory gets us. 

    These are the same questions I have. It makes sense in regard to what may have happened in the conclave of 1958, but then it goes every which way due to his actions after that and the parties reporting these details (Malachi Martin being entirely suspect).
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]