Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII  (Read 11737 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Incredulous

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8901
  • Reputation: +8675/-849
  • Gender: Male
White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
« on: May 25, 2022, 09:43:27 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Today is the Feast of St. Pope Gregory VII

    From St. Andrews missal:  " While he was saying Mass, a dove was seen to come down on him: the Holy Ghost thereby bore witness of the supernatural views that guided him in the government of the Church. 

    Forced to leave Rome, he died at Salerno in 1085, saying those words, the first of which are from
    Psalms xiiv: "I have loved justice and hated iniquity: that is why I die in exile."



    Pope Gregory XVII


    Cardinal Siri (Pope Gregory XVII)
    Visited by a white dove, symbol of the Holy Ghost while celebrating Mass.

    Vatican II's, "hidden Pope" who suffered much.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #1 on: May 25, 2022, 09:59:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • Maybe. He still fell into heresy by supporting and enforcing the Vatican II sect, therefore, losing any papal authority he may have had.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #2 on: May 26, 2022, 06:54:55 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Maybe. He still fell into heresy by supporting and enforcing the Vatican II sect, therefore, losing any papal authority he may have had.

    I don’t see any evidence of his having been a heretic.  Can you cite a heresy to which he adhered?  Regardless, he was the one in rightful possession of the papal office and had he chosen to exercise it, would have had the protection of the Holy Ghost.  He’s the key to unlocking the entire mystery of Vatican II and the reason it was possible for a series of “popes” to mostly destroy the Church with their “authority”.  This was the master-stroke of the Church’s enemies.  They knew that a legitimately elected pope would be prevented from wrecking the Church ... even if it meant God striking him dead.  So they installed an illegitimate replacement while sidelining the true pope.

    That is why the Siri situation is so crucial.  It’s the key to understanding the Crisis.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #3 on: May 26, 2022, 07:41:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Would not embracing Vatican II with it's teachings on religious liberty constitute heresy?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #4 on: May 26, 2022, 08:24:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Would not embracing Vatican II with it's teachings on religious liberty constitute heresy?

    Did he embrace them?  Secondly, no, religious liberty as a term is not heretical.  1) it's never been defined with the note of de fide and 2) there's probably a different understanding of the phrase depending on who you ask.  I've seen a lot of people (conservative Novus Ordites) asser that it basically means religious toleration.

    I think we just had a round of where I was defending you against the charge of heresy from RomanTheo.  When we asser that someone is a heretic, we'd better have 1) chapter and verse of which dogma they're directly denying and 2) proof that the person denied it.

    To charge Siri with heresy, I'd need to see 1) citations from Siri himself and 2) an explanation for why it directly contradicts something that's de fide.  And then if you confronted him about it, would he recant?

    It's not really relevant to the discussion here, since if Siri materially held the office, then he held the office.


    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #5 on: May 26, 2022, 08:51:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did he embrace them?  Secondly, no, religious liberty as a term is not heretical.  1) it's never been defined with the note of de fide and 2) there's probably a different understanding of the phrase depending on who you ask.  I've seen a lot of people (conservative Novus Ordites) asser that it basically means religious toleration.

    I think we just had a round of where I was defending you against the charge of heresy from RomanTheo.  When we asser that someone is a heretic, we'd better have 1) chapter and verse of which dogma they're directly denying and 2) proof that the person denied it.

    To charge Siri with heresy, I'd need to see 1) citations from Siri himself and 2) an explanation for why it directly contradicts something that's de fide.  And then if you confronted him about it, would he recant?
    That's fair. Although, now I'm unsure if you're implying whether Vatican 2 is not a heretical council by imparting a false understanding of religious liberty to those who embrace it.

    Quote
    It's not really relevant to the discussion here, since if Siri materially held the office, then he held the office.

    I don't disagree. I'm just not really convinced anymore by the Siri thesis. Sure, he may have been legitimately elected in 1958, and there's some evidence to support that. But beyond that point, everything else is hearsay and reading into Siri's interior forum on whether or not he was the Pope. He never explicitly confirmed or denied that.
    It still does not change the fact that he embraced the Council, said the New Mass, and enforced its new teachings against those traditionalist clergy.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 3477
    • Reputation: +2005/-447
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #6 on: May 26, 2022, 08:53:13 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Would not embracing Vatican II with it's teachings on religious liberty constitute heresy?
    .

    Of course. And it is a general rule that a person in authority consents to something that happens under his authority, which it is his duty to control. So a bishop or cardinal has a duty to preach publicly the Catholic faith and condemn error. Therefore, if he remains silent in the presence of widespread error masquerading as the Catholic faith, he is presumed to consent to that error.

    Offline josefamenendez

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4422
    • Reputation: +2946/-199
    • Gender: Female
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #7 on: May 26, 2022, 09:12:19 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, Siri IS the answer to the mystery of iniquity in the Church, the Pope who suffers much. We also will never know until it is revealed what horrors he was threatened with if he spoke truthfully to rightfully  ascend to his Papacy. Millions killed by nuclear weapons and sent to Hell? Rome bombed, family murdered? Even if he should have risen above these things in faith and claimed his rightful position, we can't actually fathom what he faced. 
    Siri can be accused as having a lack of courage and moral weakness, but that doesn't disqualify his valid election. As he never implemented His Papacy, any "heresies" attributed to him, which I doubt there are, are moot at this point. 


    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #8 on: May 26, 2022, 09:18:37 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    Of course. And it is a general rule that a person in authority consents to something that happens under his authority, which it is his duty to control. So a bishop or cardinal has a duty to preach publicly the Catholic faith and condemn error. Therefore, if he remains silent in the presence of widespread error masquerading as the Catholic faith, he is presumed to consent to that error.
    This is what I was getting at, he still joined in with those cardinals who "have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication", namely, Vatican II; and is still responsible for the same errors and heresies they promoted. Abp. Lefebvre and others initially accepted the Council, but then publicly repudiated it. Siri did not and I only have his exterior actions to go off of which align him with the Vatican 2 Whore of Babylon.

    Yes, Siri IS the answer to the mystery of iniquity in the Church, the Pope who suffers much. We also will never know until it is revealed what horrors he was threatened with if he spoke truthfully to rightfully  ascend to his Papacy. Millions killed by nuclear weapons and sent to Hell? Rome bombed, family murdered? Even if he should have risen above these things in faith and claimed his rightful position, we can't actually fathom what he faced.
    Again, this is reading into his interior forum. Outside of the hearsay of Malachi Martin and others, there's no way of knowing just what motivated him to stay quiet if he were the legitimate Pope. There's no evidence outside of some vague remark about a terrible secret. 

    I'm not rejecting the thesis that he may have been legitimately elected. But the rest of that which has come with it is the speculation of the trad conspiracy mill.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10057
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #9 on: May 26, 2022, 05:47:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did he embrace them?  Secondly, no, religious liberty as a term is not heretical.  1) it's never been defined with the note of de fide and 2) there's probably a different understanding of the phrase depending on who you ask.  I've seen a lot of people (conservative Novus Ordites) asser that it basically means religious toleration.

    I think we just had a round of where I was defending you against the charge of heresy from RomanTheo.  When we asser that someone is a heretic, we'd better have 1) chapter and verse of which dogma they're directly denying and 2) proof that the person denied it.

    To charge Siri with heresy, I'd need to see 1) citations from Siri himself and 2) an explanation for why it directly contradicts something that's de fide.  And then if you confronted him about it, would he recant?

    It's not really relevant to the discussion here, since if Siri materially held the office, then he held the office.
    So, how is he any different than any of the other Vatican II "popes"?  And if he isn't any different, then how is he "the answer" or "the key"?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #10 on: May 26, 2022, 09:15:34 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, how is he any different than any of the other Vatican II "popes"?  And if he isn't any different, then how is he "the answer" or "the key"?

    He's different because as the legitimate pope his Magisterium would have been protected by the Holy Spirit.  God would not allow a legitimate pope to teach error.  But an imposter doesn't have the same protections.  This really isn't that difficult.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #11 on: May 26, 2022, 09:16:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's fair. Although, now I'm unsure if you're implying whether Vatican 2 is not a heretical council by imparting a false understanding of religious liberty to those who embrace it.

    Religious Liberty is not heretical, a grave error (which the Holy Spirit also would not allow a legitimate Ecuмenical Council to teach), but not strictly heresy.  Chief heresy of V2 was the false ecclesiology and and the denial of EENS ... which, sadly, most Traditional Catholics also hold.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #12 on: May 26, 2022, 09:19:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • He's different because as the legitimate pope his Magisterium would have been protected by the Holy Spirit.  God would not allow a legitimate pope to teach error.  But an imposter doesn't have the same protections.  This really isn't that difficult.
    Then his offering of the New Mass and support and implementation of the teachings of Vatican 2 are protected, therefore, proving that there is no error or heresy in either.

    But we know this isn't true because there is error and heresy in both. Meaning Pope Gregory XVII taught these errors and offered an invalid liturgy. Therefore, he wasn't a secret Pope at all.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #13 on: May 26, 2022, 09:39:29 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • He's different because as the legitimate pope his Magisterium would have been protected by the Holy Spirit.  God would not allow a legitimate pope to teach error.  But an imposter doesn't have the same protections.  This really isn't that difficult.

    I need to add that these enemies deliberately waited for Siri to be elected and then to accept before moving in with their threats.  This was necessary, because they knew that the Holy Ghost would prevent a legitimate pope from teaching error to the Church.  Were a secret evil infiltrator to get elected, God would strike him dead if necessary to prevent him from teaching error to the Church from the Holy See.  Had they threatened Siri into refusing to accept, despite the threats, he would not have ever held the office.  It's only a resignation from office that threats invalidate.  But he does not hold the office until he accepts.  By pushing aside a man who was elected and accepted, they forced him out of office illegitimately under duress, which then impeded a subsequent election from being legitimate.  Consequently, they foisted an illegitimate pope on the world who was therefore not protected by the Holy Ghost and could proceed to wreck the Church.

    So these enemies of the Church have more faith in the protection of the Holy Ghost over the Church and the papacy than R&R do.  This was a brilliant tactic, and they pulled it off flawlessly.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #14 on: May 26, 2022, 09:44:04 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Then his offering of the New Mass and support and implementation of the teachings of Vatican 2 are protected, therefore, proving that there is no error or heresy in either.

    But we know this isn't true because there is error and heresy in both. Meaning Pope Gregory XVII taught these errors and offered an invalid liturgy. Therefore, he wasn't a secret Pope at all.

    Popes are only protected from teaching error from the Holy See.  He never taught anything in the capacity of pope, but only as a private doctor.  Popes are not protected from personal error or grave sin (as we have seen with several popes who were incredible scoundrels), only from teaching error to the Universal Church from the See of Peter.  Siri never did that.  In fact, he never taught anything from the Holy See.  It's even possible that he didn't believe that he was the pope.

    To quote Biden, come on, man.

    It is merely pious opinion that a Pope cannot in his personal capacity defect from the faith (cf. Bellarmine), and I believe that had Siri assumed the exercise of the papal office, he would have been protected from that as well.  Nevertheless, you have still provided zero proof that he was himself a heretic.