Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Banezian on May 24, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
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I'm arguing with an NO Catholic who's a Zionist, and I found a good quote attributed to St. Augustine.
"Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jєωιѕн people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ. The Jews held Him; the Jews insulted Him; the Jews bound Him; they crowned Him with thorns and dishonored Him by spitting upon Him; they scourged Him; they heaped abuses upon Him; they hung Him upon a tree"
I can't find the source though. Did Augustine say this? If so, where?
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Does it matter who said it? The statements are true to the source, the bible, which Jews do not have. Remind them, that there was a murder of jews, but not a h0Ɩ0cαųst. h0Ɩ0cαųst is a Holy Offering to God. That was Jesus Christ.
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The Fathers Of The Church, A New Translation, Volume 27 of the entire series, appears to be 127 volumes long
which is Volume 15 of the writings of St. Augustine in the series which cover his writings
https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur009508mbp
Go to page 301
The Creed, Chapter 10
I have not been able to find this quote in the New Advent collection of St. Augustine's writings.
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You'll note that the first part of the quote is missing, and I'm looking for it, but I'm not sure I'll find it, but not to say it doesn't exist.
A large number of useless books utilize this quote, and I mean the first part of the quote in particular, and refer to secondary sources as their source, which themselves use secondary sources. It's absurd how modern scholarship prizes itself on listing one's sources, and I have to wade through a lot of nonsense.
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http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/chosen.htm
Citation 20
Augustine: AOJ; cf. also JUR vol.III:1536
I don't know what AOJ is.
Now JUR vol. III, I take to mean The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 3, by William A. Jurgens
I'm attaching two screenshots of 1536; don't know why it was cited
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http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/chosen.htm
Citation 20
Augustine: AOJ; cf. also JUR vol.III:1536
I don't know what AOJ is.
Now JUR vol. III, I take to mean The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 3, by William A. Jurgens
I'm attaching two screenshots of 1536; don't know why it was cited
You do find great sources.
Thank you, Trad123!
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I'm arguing with an NO Catholic who's a Zionist, and I found a good quote attributed to St. Augustine.
As long as he remains a Zionist, I think you will have major problems talking sense to him. You might quote to him some of the words of Pope St. Pius X during his face to face encounter with the founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl. Perhaps, the strongest words of the great saint were these: "The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." A Zionist not only recognizes the Jєωιѕн people, he asserts their supposed right to push out with necessary force (i.e., exterminate if necessary) Palestinians including Christians living in Palestine.
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As long as he remains a Zionist, I think you will have major problems talking sense to him. You might quote to him some of the words of Pope St. Pius X during his face to face encounter with the founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl. Perhaps, the strongest words of the great saint were these: "The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." A Zionist not only recognizes the Jєωιѕн people, he asserts their supposed right to push out with necessary force (i.e., exterminate if necessary) Palestinians including Christians living in Palestine.
Have him read this: (https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/23/the-point-september-1958/) (https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/23/the-point-september-1958/)
HOW THE JEWS INVADED THE HOLY LAND
Four Men Who Built The Zionist State
* Theodore Herzl:
If Moses Hess was the violent revolutionist that Zionism needed to start it off, Theodore Herzl was the capable calculator who brought order to the Zionist frenzy, won for Zionism the support of Western Jews, and gave permanent direction to the Jєωιѕн resurgence by advocating the immediate establishment of a self-governing Jєωιѕн state.
With diabolical doggedness, Herzl peddled his plan for a Jєωιѕн homeland on every important doorstep in Europe. The Kaiser listened to him. And so did the King of Italy and the Sultan of Turkey. England offered him a piece of her own property in Uganda. But the Zionists were determined against second-class handouts. They wanted Palestine or nothing for their nation, and Jerusalem for their capital.
Herzl dared approach even the Pope, Saint Pius X, to ask support for a Jєωιѕн settlement in Palestine. To so fantastic a proposal, the Holy Father (says Herzl’s Diaries): “answered in a stern and categorical manner: ‘We are unable to favor this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem — but we could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jews have not recognized Our Lord; therefore, we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people.’ ”
The Pope did not discount the possibility of some measure of success for Zionism. Himself the virtual prisoner of Italy’s Masonic administrators, Saint Pius X held no illusory view of “Catholic Europe.” The men who were then running Europe’s governments were the offspring of those same Freemasons who had gloried in tearing down the ghetto walls while they sacked the churches. For Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ had set the Jews up; and now that the Masons were in unchallenged power, the Jews could expect great things. But could they really expect Palestine? Besides being the Holy Land of the Christians, the territory of Palestine was the guarded property of the Turkish Empire, the centuries-old home of an established people. It seemed unlikely to the Pope that great numbers of Jews could ever settle there — and unthinkable that circuмstances would ever permit the Jews to set up their own government in the place.
The Zionists, on their part, were confident that when desired circuмstances do not present themselves on their own, they can be made to order. In a speech before the Sixth Zionist Congress in 1903, Herzl’s colleague, Max Nordau, said (and we repeat that the year was 1903): “Let me tell you the following words as if I were showing you the rungs of a ladder leading upward and upward: Herzl, the Zionist Congress, the English Uganda proposition, the future World War, the peace conference where, with the help of England, a free and Jєωιѕн Palestine will be created.”
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How is he using this quote to advance Zionism?
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How is he using this quote to advance Zionism?
I'm using it against Zionism
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This part is a slight corruption of The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-three Centuries of Antisemitism p. 52 (https://books.google.com/books?id=J40gNC7cxfYC&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q=%22Judaism,%20since%20Christ,%20is%20a%20corruption;%20indeed,%20Judas%20is%20the%20image%20of%20the%20Jєωιѕн%20people:%20their%20understanding%20of%22&f=false) by Edward H. Flannery:
Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jєωιѕн people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ.
This part is "Augustine, The Creed, 3:10 (FCCH, 27:301)," according to Flannery p. 306 (https://books.google.com/books?id=J40gNC7cxfYC&pg=PA306):The Jews held Him; the Jews insulted Him; the Jews bound Him; they crowned Him with thorns and dishonored Him by spitting upon Him; they scourged Him; they heaped abuses upon Him; they hung Him upon a tree
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I'm using it against Zionism
Ok. I mis-read the OP. I was thinking that it was he that used the quote and you were trying to find where the Saint said it. Thanks.
My daughter was asked out by a Zionist once. She didn't know he was a Zionist until later because she told me that when he started talking about the Jews everything he said was just crazy! We discussed the issue a while and she told him that she couldn't go out with him because he wasn't even Christian.
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My Zionist friend says the quote is anti-Semitic and stupid( because the Romans killed Christ) I guess they don't ask themselves "on who's orders?"
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The Jews themselves are anti-semitic. Jesus was a Jew. His blood is on their hands, their words, recorded in scripture:
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Matthew 27 (Douay-Rheims 1899)
22 Pilate saith to them: What shall I do then with Jesus that is called Christ? They say all: Let him be crucified. 23 The governor said to them: Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying: Let him be crucified. 24 And Pilate seeing that he prevailed nothing, but that rather a tumult was made; taking water washed his hands before the people, saying: I am innocent of the blood of this just man; look you to it. 25 And the whole people answering, said: His blood be upon us and our children
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The statement also sounds like it may be coming from Fr. Denis Fahey (book). He may have taken the source and put it in his book?