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Author Topic: We never went to the Moon - proof  (Read 6714 times)

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Offline Syracuse

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Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
« Reply #75 on: August 01, 2019, 11:58:01 AM »
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  • "Moon Landing" was one of the three biggest lies of the 20th century.
    "I'm running things now, and I'll do everything it takes to destroy the enemies of God. Now, you join me, and I promise you, you'll never have to worry about whether you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing, because we will do the only thing."
    ~ Joseph Croix de Fer


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #76 on: August 01, 2019, 03:16:35 PM »
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  • Quote
    Stanley: You also ask if I have any connection to NASA. Would it matter? If so, why, and if not, why ask? I suspect whatever I might say would distract the discussion. I would rather focus on evidence. The identity of X was not revealed in the CCCC thread for a similar reason.

     
    OK, Stanley, so you’re going to hide behind X of CCCC fame. He hasn’t revealed his identity either, (though he said he would at the right time.) You, obviously, plan to do the same. So we are deprived of knowledge which might help some of us determine your real credentials. So, yes, it does matter.

    I’ll simply assume that you have some kind of pedigree. I’ll ask you merely to comment on one tiny aspect, a specific event touching the Apollo 13 saga. Surely you can help clear up one little matter for me.
    Since I am apparently numbered among the conspiracy nutters, who can only fall back on the information provided by an occasional youtube video, please, with your much greater and far ranging collection of knowledge and data, explain to me a seeming contradiction in the NASA record.

    Let me set this up in an admittedly awkward manner. I have no formal training, and will probably misrepresent or screw up some of the details. But please bear with me.

    The Apollo 13 crew makes it to the moon, or within striking distance of the Moon. Suddenly it all goes kaablooey. An oxygen tank explodes in the command module, or is otherwise disabled. Battery power is running out, and the water supply low. They have only enough power, (12 Amps) to run a kitchen blender, and that won’t last long. What do they do?

    Well, to make a long story short, they shimmy their way up into the lunar landing module (LEM). That vehicle is still attached to the third stage of the Saturn rocket because the actual lunar landing never materializes and has to be aborted for the reasons explained.

    The LEM is a rickety affair, a patchy looking piece of junk overlaid with the equivalent of multiple layers of Reynolds Wrap, (or is it mylar?). Total thickness of this dubious fabric, we are told, does not exceed 12 thousandths of an inch. With a little effort, one can poke one’s finger through the material.
    Nevertheless, this is the tiny vehicle our valiant astronauts must now occupy and navigate 200,000 plus miles through space before splashing down on earth. Designed originally for two men, it now has three men crammed into its tiny quarters.

    Leaving aside all the potential, (and obvious) radiation hazards in deep space, let’s focus only on the temperatures outside the capsule’s thin barrier, and inside the same. That’s the issue the video cited below addresses.

    The ever ebullient and confident NASA astronaut Alan Bean, who allegedly walked the Moon’s surface on the Apollo 12 mission, tells us that temperatures, when hurdling through space, can soar to 250 degrees F. He should know. He’s been there, he says. Bean dies in 2018, so is not around to repeat the numbers.

    NASA makes a video docuмentary about Apollo 13, as well. In this docuмentary we hear from NASA Project Manager, Gene Kranz, and at least one other experienced astronaut. They tell us that temperatures on board the LEM plummet to 34 degrees. That’s a 280 degree plus discrepancy in the two tales. So how are the astronauts keeping warm? Or, how are they keeping cool, as the case may be?
    We assume that the LEM is probably not going to provide much protection from extreme space temperatures. It’s interior is separated only by a very thin outer skin. After all, this vehicle was constructed for a relatively short descent to the Moon’s surface, not for a 200,000 mile journey through space.

     
    The video provided is admittedly pretty badly made and edited. It contains a view gratuitous obcenities, as well. Yet it does provide the recorded testimonies of both Alan Bean and Gene Kranz, and it’s pretty obvious that these two are not on the same page. Can you explain the discrepancy?


     


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #77 on: August 02, 2019, 10:46:57 AM »
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  • Yet it does provide the recorded testimonies of both Alan Bean and Gene Kranz, and it’s pretty obvious that these two are not on the same page. Can you explain the discrepancy?
    The NASA mission report on Apollo 13 says it got colder, estimated at 45-50 oF. See page G-3.
    https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a13/A13_MissionOpReport.pdf

    It's not clear to me what Alan Bean is talking about. I think he was talking about the LM on the moon. The LM was designed for the moon surface and the relatively short trips to and from the CM.

    Temperature would rise or fall based on whether there is net heat in or out. Heat in includes the sun and heat from the equipment and astronauts, and (on the moon) radiation from the moon surface. Heat out includes natural radiation as well as cooling systems. The cooling systems were designed to expel enough heat to keep a balance of incoming and outgoing under ordinary circuмstances. 

    If the cooling system was needed and wasn't running, then the temperature would increase as Bean says - if all other heat sources stayed the same. But the heat sources were not the same in Apollo 13 after the explosion.

    Or perhaps Bean was just mistaken. People do make mistakes sometimes.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #78 on: August 02, 2019, 01:07:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    Stanley:
    It's not clear to me what Alan Bean is talking about. I think he was talking about the LM on the moon. The LM was designed for the moon surface and the relatively short trips to and from the CM….

     
    Or perhaps Bean was just mistaken. People do make mistakes sometimes.

    Indeed. The LM, as you say was designed for short trips, not for 200,000 mile plus trips. Yet, these three astronauts spent three days in space in a flimsy, virtually unprotected, LM (LEM) in a totally hostile environment for which the vehicle had never been designed. They were huddled together on this craft, shorn, apparently, even of their space suits. But they survived unscathed through it all.

    Kelly Smith, one of NASA’s new generation, tells us that the future Orion has to be “one tough space craft” in order to navigate through the hostile environment of deep space. He doesn’t ignore the Van Allen belts either, “an area of dangerous radiation,” he says. In fact, Smith continues, we have to go through them twice, once going and once coming back. The new, Orion-focused NASA takes the Van Allen Belts very seriously.

    But heck, what’s the worry? 12 Apollo astronauts did it six times, using far inferior Apollo technology. They traveled through the belts easily, going and coming. Amazingly, the Apollo 13 crew apparently passed through them one way in what amounted to little more than a glorified, spangled pup tent. So what’s all the fuss, now, NASA?

    Alan Beam certainly wasn’t worried. If he passed through these belts, he didn’t even know it. In fact, Bean had to be educated as to what the Van Allen Belts really are. He apparently had no idea where in lower earth orbit they began, or where their outer limits ended. Nor did he seem to appreciate the dangers they posed. But, hey, if these belts extend 36,000 above the earth’s surface, he was good. Because he and the others traveled far beyond them, by golly!

    Yes, Stanley, I would have to echo your (suspicion?) (suggestion?) that Bean might have been just plain mistaken. That is putting it rather mildly from my perspective. I hesitate to say that he was intentionally lying. There is, I’m afraid, a human factor that plays into all of this, subject, possibly, to sinister, invisible mind-altering forces. And they’re scary. Because I'll tell you this, Stanley, the entire Apollo narrative does not add up.

     

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #79 on: August 02, 2019, 04:34:41 PM »
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  • Indeed. The LM, as you say was designed for short trips, not for 200,000 mile plus trips. Yet, these three astronauts spent three days in space in a flimsy, virtually unprotected, LM (LEM) in a totally hostile environment for which the vehicle had never been designed. They were huddled together on this craft, shorn, apparently, even of their space suits. But they survived unscathed through it all.
    I said "The LM was designed for the moon surface and the relatively short trips to and from the CM". 

    First, we were talking about heat transfer, and second, the "short trips" are short in time. Nevertheless, the LM was designed to hold the astronauts on those short trips in space. 

    On the moon, the LM would have residual heat from the rockets. The lunar surface would be radiating heat. They did land at lunar dawn, but it was still hot, and they knew this from previous unmanned probes. That's why the astronaut suit included insulated EV shoes. On the other hand, the LM was wrapped in reflective multi-layer thermal insulation, so it was protected from the heat of the sun and lunar surface to some degree.
    https://airandspace.si.edu/multimedia-gallery/4857640jpg
    https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-Lunar-Landing-Module-look-like-it-is-wrapped-in-golden-aluminium-foil
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-layer_insulation

    After the explosion on Apollo 13, they used the LM, but they didn't have the heat incoming from the moon surface (whatever amount that would be), or from the rockets, and they turned off a lot of the equipment so it was not generating heat either.


    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Military security?/Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #80 on: August 02, 2019, 05:01:08 PM »
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  • There is an element of truth to this. If you can put something into orbit, you can drop it out of orbit anywhere, and so deliver ICBMs.  When USSR launched Sputnik, it became an element of national security for the US to be able to do the same.  But that much only requires the tech for low earth orbit, and the US did that in 1958 (Explorer).

    The U.S.A. actually had the necessary technology before the Soviet launch of Sputnik, but Pres. Dwight "Ike" Eisenhower [] initially insisted that whatever rocket was used by the U.S.A. to put a satellite into orbit must be a civilian development.  He had to be concerned with the sensitivities of the various former Western Allies, now members of NATO.  That required concern about international reaction to a U.S. military launch, known to be based on (ahem! ) German expertise, putting a satellite into orbit.  Alas, poor Ike!   Those attempted civilian-developed launches kept failing.  After Sputnik, Ike changed his mind, bringing in Wernher von Braun's Germans from the openly military Redstone Arsenal (Huntsville, Ala.), and "the Germans" promptly put a U.S. satellite into orbit.


    Other elements of the space race - manned space flight

    The military-rocket successes continued:
    •   suborbital Project-Mercury flights were launched on Redstone rockets [];
    •   orbital Project-Mercury flights were launched on Atlas rockets; and
    •   Project-Gemini flights (2-man capsules) were launched on Titan-II rockets.
    All rockets named in this paragraph were repurposed from origins as ICBMs (i.e., military launchers of nuclear warheads).  Starting with Atlas, there was separate manufacturing and quality-assurance for human-rated missiles (i.e., those intended for NASA).


    and especially satellites - were also within national security needs.

    Yes, indeed: The Soviet Union developed surface-to-air (i.e., antiaircraft) missiles with a high-altitude reach capable of shooting down the high-flying U.S. U-2 reconnaisance jet-plane shortly before the Cuban Missile Crisis (Oct. 1962).  So satellites would have to be relied upon for U.S. national security needs for aerial surveillance in the future.

    -------
    Note : U.S. Pres. Dwight "Ike" Eisenhower earned his U.S. fame & electability as the unconditionally victorious Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, whose responsibilities included the final go/no-go decision on D-Day.  He also was stuck with continually juggling the egos of U.S. Gen. George Patton and English Gen. Wilbert "Monty" Montgomery, keeping each of them productive toward the goal of victory over nαzι Germany.  It was his "farewell address" as president of the U.S. in which he issued a famous warning about the "military-industrial complex",  which he arguably understood far better than any of his successors in the Oval Office.

    Note : The Redstone rocket was more-or-less a preliminary member of a line of rocket designs led by Wernher von Braun, which were apparently more commonly called the "Jupiter/Juno family",  which culminated in the Saturn V.  So much for the "on the 1st try" rhetoric argued elsewhere herein in unsuccessful hopes of refuting the reality of the Apollo landings on the Moon.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #81 on: August 02, 2019, 06:40:17 PM »
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    Stanley:
    After the explosion on Apollo 13, they used the LM, but they didn't have the heat incoming from the moon surface (whatever amount that would be), or from the rockets, and they turned off a lot of the equipment so it was not generating heat either.
    You lost me. The Apollo 13 astronauts approached the Moon’s surface, I guess. One oxygen tank blew up. They aborted the actual moon landing and started to whiz back home pronto. That meant having to negotiate 200,000 return miles plus in deep space. We’re not talking now about heat generated near or on the Moon, but heat in deep space on the return journey. How much of that distance was spent on the CM before the astronauts decided to climb into the LM, I don’t know. Do you? I assume that much of it was on the LM, that leggy, thinly covered contraption, which they could never operate successfully during simulations on earth, but which seemed to work just fine on the Moon.

    Aside from radiation hazards, what was the temperature of deep space during LM’s flight home? Was it, as Project Mgr Gene Kranz supposed, 34 degrees F? Or was it a roaring 250 degrees F as Alan Bean suggested it might be? (I know that you think Bean was talking about the LM on the moon. I don’t think so)
    In any case, did the LM have sophisticated climate control capabilities designed to handle both extremes in temperature? Again, I don’t think so, because the astronauts were not planning to spend much time aboard it.

     
    But I’m asking you, Stanley, since you imply that you’re in possession of knowledge about things that the average Youtube conspiracy theorist would not have.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #82 on: August 02, 2019, 07:45:40 PM »
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  • You lost me. The Apollo 13 astronauts approached the Moon’s surface, I guess. One oxygen tank blew up. They aborted the actual moon landing and started to whiz back home pronto. That meant having to negotiate 200,000 return miles plus in deep space. We’re not talking now about heat generated near or on the Moon, but heat in deep space on the return journey.
    ...
    But I’m asking you, Stanley, since you imply that you’re in possession of knowledge about things that the average Youtube conspiracy theorist would not have.
    There's no secret knowledge here. There's a lot of docuмentation on the internet. The Apollo program was pretty open, certainly compared to something like the Manhattan project.

    On the moon, the LM would have had heat remaining from the rockets for maneuvering and landing, heat from running the equipment, and heat from the moon surface. The LM was designed to keep a stable temperature on the moon surface - the primary environment it was designed for. Some of these heat sources were missing when the LM was used on Apollo 13. If the missing heat source are more than what would have been eliminated by the cooling system on the lunar surface, the LM would get lose net heat and get colder.

    Talking about the temperature of space is a little misleading. It's a plasma - a gas where the molecules become ionized -  which is normally considered high temperature. In physics terms, temperature relates to how much energy molecules have. As a gas temperature increases, molecules have on average higher kinetic energy - they move at higher speeds. But plasma in space is diffuse - the distance between molecules is greater than it is for a gas on earth. So even though the molecules have high kinetic energy, they don't strike a space ship often enough to transfer much of that kinetic energy. It's the same reason you can put your hands in the air in a 400 degree oven for quite a while before it starts to hurt, but putting your hand in 212 degree boiling water hurts immediately. Water is a lot more dense than air.


    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Soviets/Re: Military security?/Re: We never went to the Moon [...]
    « Reply #83 on: August 02, 2019, 11:02:29 PM »
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  • But manned flight to the moon? How that helps militarily seems rather more indirect.

    Sigh.  You've goaded me into a spoiler on my own history project (or should I call it a preview?) []:

    The Soviet military had little enthusiasm (even that perhaps an overstatement) for manned space-flight, whether to the moon or not, for exactly such reasons: Did it help them close their ICBM "missile gap" [#] relative to the U.S.A.?  No. On the contrary, it diverted the attention of skilled--or even brilliant--rocket-developers (notably posthumously famous "Chief Designer" Sergei P. Korolev) from military rockets.  They considered rocketry components (e.g. engines) manufactured for the "Space Race" to be more important to be used in military rockets to grow their ICBM stockpile, except that some of those components had design criteria that conflicted with criteria for quantity-oriented manufacturing of ICBMs.  Important perspective is provided by where the Soviet manned-spaceflight program fit into the Soviet government: It was merely an R&D program in the Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces, which was under the command of the Chief Marshall of Artillery.

    Soviet political support was provided by the autocratic Premier Nikita Khruschev, mostly because he was happy to announce accomplishments that had propaganda value, and by Korolev's design bureau, who were interested in manned exploration of space, competition or not.  The Soviet interest in propaganda wasn't so much how it was received in the U.S.A., but the impression it made on more-or-less unaligned 3rd-World countries (esp. those situated in strategic places [@],  or possessing strategic natural resources).  Korolev was also politicaly influential enough to secure support for the manned-spaceflight program from Leonid Brezhnev, who had had less interest in it than Khruschev [☭].  It was under Brezhnev that the Soviet Union closed the "missile gap".  After that was accomplished, he preferred to spend the Soviet military budget on expanding conventional (i.e., nonnuclear) forces, notably including the Soviet navy.

    -------
    Note ♣: AlligatorDicax: "Happy 50th Anniversary! /Re:  Moon Landings - No Hard Science [...] ".  Reply #19 [p. 2] on: July 21, 2019 at 00:58:41.  <https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/we-never-went-to-the-moon-proof/msg660216/#msg660216> (topic of actual posting, contrary to what would be expected from the subject text following the ‘/’.

    Note #: Contrary to the charges levelled by 1960 presidential candidate John Kennedy against then-V.P. Richard Nixon, it was not the U.S. that was risking its Atomic-Age military security by tolerating an alleged ICBM "missile gap" relative to the Soviet Union, but the Soviets who were actually far behind.  Soviet leaders knew better to believe Kennedy-campaign rhetoric; they were painfully aware that it was they who were far behind.  And they knew that U.S. leaders knew that while Kennedy, Khruschev, et. al., were trying to negotiate a mutually tolerable resolution of the Cuban Missile Crisis (Oct. 1962).

    Note ☭: Khruschev (1953--1964) was overthrown in Oct. 1964.  He was considered increasingly erratic; his Cuban adventure was a contributing factor.  He was especially noteworthy as the 1st more-or-less sovereign leader of the Soviet Union who lived to tell about it.  He was provided with a pension and 2 homes.  His power was originally divided into a "collective leadership" of 5 high-ranking leaders, but it was eventually consolidated by Leonid Brezhnev (1964--1982), whose ruled until his own death, holding onto sovereign power despite developing increasingly obvious physical/medical infirmities.

    Note @: "Strategic places" are those with potential military importance (e.g., being alongside or astride narrow shipping lanes) that's independent of strategic natural resources.  Even more appealing are those among them that have forms of government that're vulnerable to Marxist agitation, puppetry, or outright take-over, notably monarchies.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Military security?/Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #84 on: August 02, 2019, 11:18:13 PM »
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  • After Sputnik, Ike changed his mind, bringing in Wernher von Braun's Germans from the openly military Redstone Arsenal (Huntsville, Ala.), and "the Germans" promptly put a U.S. satellite into orbit.

    Why quotes?
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #85 on: August 03, 2019, 01:16:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    Syracuse: "Moon Landing" was one of the three biggest lies of the 20th century.

    It may be the biggest.  The corrupt American empire pulled out all the stops on that one.  There was no way that American exceptionalism was going to lose out to Russia.  Yet, ironically, NASA started using Russian technology, particularly Russian cooling tubes for its massive clunker, the Saturn F1.
    The more I read and hear about this gigantic boondoggle, in the wake of its 50th anniversary, the more ashamed I become of my country.
     


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #86 on: August 03, 2019, 01:36:46 PM »
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  • .... the more ashamed I become of my country.
    It is more profitable to be ashamed of yourself for your own sins.  Why worry about something which you are not responsible for nor do you have any power to change and ultimately you may not even have the knowledge and training to fully understand?  To my knowledge, none of the leading lights of the conspiracy theory have any scientific or space technology training.  It’s probably wise to just not speak about it lest you show everyone how ignorant and foolish you are.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #87 on: August 03, 2019, 09:37:29 PM »
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    It is more profitable to be ashamed of yourself for your own sins.
    You’re right. I accept your mild rebuke. I should be conscious mainly of my own sins, and focus often upon them. Being ashamed of my country should never eclipse the shame I feel for my own sins.
    I recognize this, and take to heart your admonition.

    Nevertheless, I remind you and other forum members that CI was established for the express purpose of allowing ordinary traditional Catholics like myself to express their opinions on a wide variety of topics and themes. In that regard, I don’t think that I have violated established principles of any CI charter, or the provisions under any such charter.

    Perhaps shame for my country is the wrong way of putting it. But as a Christian, I am obligated to be no more than a law abiding citizen, to pray for my leaders, and to obey them to the limits that conscience permits. Beyond that, love for country and patriotic fervor are not necessarily a part of the citizen contract.

    What true Catholic can really love a country conceived in Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and born out of Revolution, a country whose foundations are only apparently, or nominally, Christian, but whose guiding Constitution invokes false revolutionary notions of liberty, equality and fraternity? Was not the American Republic so established, and have not Catholic authors like Solange Hertz written about that often? (Solange used to be one of the Society’s favorites. But I don’t think you’ll find her works on many SSPX book store shelves today.)

    From the beginning, the Catholic Church in America fell for the same false American revolutionary spirit. She genuflected obediently to it, and swore early, unapologetic allegiance to it. To this day, The American Church has never emerged from the strange American ethos. Even the pope of Rome saw the problem and warned the American Episcopacy to denounce the deceit of Americanism. But I digress.

    No, being ashamed is the wrong way to express it. Being disgusted and put off is more like it. America was founded on monumental revolutionary lies and untruth. That’s why today, and through most of her history, she has found it so easy, even natural, to lie to her people

    The Moon Hoax is just one more of those lies, albeit perhaps, the biggest, most elaborately conceived and most expensive of them to date. Though 911 might provide some competition for its sheer ingenuity and daring, if nothing else.

    Bart Sibrel is a hero of mine. He’s got the guts to do and say what my lack of courage forbids. This is a man, along with others like James Fetzer, Dennis Cimino, and Wolfgang Halbig, just to name a few, who tell the truth, even when speaking that truth might threaten to, or actually, destroy them. These are Americans of whom I am proud. I am certainly not ashamed of them.

    Below, find a taped interview done with Sibrel in 2017 on Veritas Radio.


    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    "Rocket-science"/Re: We never went to the Moon - proof
    « Reply #88 on: August 04, 2019, 04:17:00 PM »
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  • As the old comparison goes, going to the moon IS actual rocket science, so this type of engineering is highly complex.  Most engineers can't comprehend it and aren't trained to.  You can't go to your local college and major in rocket science.

    Really, now?  You've never heard of the major called aerospace engineering?

    Are you ignorant of prerequisite courses for all engineering, which include  physics, calculus, numerical analysis, linear algebra, Laplace transforms (i.e., for differential equations), and thermodynamics?  Most of which are courses for the schedules of underclassmen?


    Only those highly trained genius scientists "at the top" understood it and were tasked with putting together the overall plan.  It would've only taken a few engineers to convince everyone else that "this will work".

    Absolute nonsense!  Have you ever actively participated in an engineering design review?  Hah!  I'm pretty sure that I know the answer to that question.

    You do know, don't you, that trial lawyers characteristically reject engineers from trial juries, because they're famously resistant to being led by lawyerly arguments, and continue to seek "inconvenient truths".  Professional engineers are highly focused on details, so even the numerous engineers who have an introverted personality will question whether "this will work".  Likewise computerists who aren't formally "engineers", especially those who've earned computer-science degrees.