Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?  (Read 1673 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline 2Vermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10065
  • Reputation: +5260/-916
  • Gender: Female
Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2024, 07:48:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interesting position of +Sanborn's RCI:

    30. Baptisms conferred by Eastern schismatics are considered valid, unless they have been conferred by clergy who are not subject to the schismatic hierarchy, or have been conferred by those subject to the Russian patriarchate, in which cases positive eyewitness proof of validity must be provided.
    That is interesting.  I typically just lump all of the Orthodox schismatics together and consider all of their sacraments as valid.  But this thread has made me think differently.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 635
    • Reputation: +456/-28
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #16 on: March 27, 2024, 01:09:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I once read that up to 80% of the Russian Orthodox clergy were made up of KGB agents. Sounds a little too high of a percentage to be credible.

    Anyway, the question is: were they actually ordained, or were they just installed as bogus priests? 

    If the patriarch agreed to have bogus priests, then the whole thing is probable fake by now. They are not even "true schismatics" anymore.

    A Catholic Vatican would have a deep investigation, just like they did under Pope Leo XIII about the Anglican orders.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 754
    • Reputation: +508/-94
    • Gender: Male
    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #17 on: March 27, 2024, 05:00:09 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I once read that up to 80% of the Russian Orthodox clergy were made up of KGB agents. Sounds a little too high of a percentage to be credible.

    Anyway, the question is: were they actually ordained, or were they just installed as bogus priests?

    If the patriarch agreed to have bogus priests, then the whole thing is probable fake by now. They are not even "true schismatics" anymore.

    A Catholic Vatican would have a deep investigation, just like they did under Pope Leo XIII about the Anglican orders.
    ROCOR would not have reconciled with the Moscow Patriarchate were there any question regarding the Holy Orders of the patriarchal church.

    Byzantine sacramental theology is different than Latin theology. They do not speak of "valid/invalid" or "licit/illicit". Rather, in Byzantint theology whether Catholic or Orthodox, the question is does an ecclesial body "have grace" or does it "lack grace". If the patriarchal church lacked grace, ROCOR bishops and and priest would had to have rebaptised and rechrismated the whole patriarchal church and then reordain its clergy. All this before ecclesial communion could have been reestablished between the two churches.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 635
    • Reputation: +456/-28
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #18 on: March 27, 2024, 05:55:46 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • ROCOR would not have reconciled with the Moscow Patriarchate were there any question regarding the Holy Orders of the patriarchal church.

    Byzantine sacramental theology is different than Latin theology. They do not speak of "valid/invalid" or "licit/illicit". Rather, in Byzantint theology whether Catholic or Orthodox, the question is does an ecclesial body "have grace" or does it "lack grace". If the patriarchal church lacked grace, ROCOR bishops and and priest would had to have rebaptised and rechrismated the whole patriarchal church and then reordain its clergy. All this before ecclesial communion could have been reestablished between the two churches.

    So you are basically saying that "ROCOR" (I have no idea what it means) is a serious institution and the fact that they consider the Moscow Patriarchate legitimate means that we should consider them valid? 

    I am just rephrasing so I am sure I understand what you are saying.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4388
    • Reputation: +1631/-194
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #19 on: March 27, 2024, 06:45:40 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • ROCOR would not have reconciled with the Moscow Patriarchate were there any question regarding the Holy Orders of the patriarchal church.

    Byzantine sacramental theology is different than Latin theology. They do not speak of "valid/invalid" or "licit/illicit". Rather, in Byzantint theology whether Catholic or Orthodox, the question is does an ecclesial body "have grace" or does it "lack grace". If the patriarchal church lacked grace, ROCOR bishops and and priest would had to have rebaptised and rechrismated the whole patriarchal church and then reordain its clergy. All this before ecclesial communion could have been reestablished between the two churches.

    Just wondering, is this the way they justify marriage after divorce --- that the marriage once "had grace", but now it has "lost grace", and the spouses in this "graceless" marriage are now free to remarry (presumably after having repented and having done penance for whatever they did to make the grace disappear)?

    How convenient.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8018
    • Reputation: +2452/-1105
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #20 on: March 27, 2024, 11:54:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interesting position of +Sanborn's RCI:

    30. Baptisms conferred by Eastern schismatics are considered valid, unless they have been conferred by clergy who are not subject to the schismatic hierarchy, or have been conferred by those subject to the Russian patriarchate, in which cases positive eyewitness proof of validity must be provided.
     
    Ironically, this standard has potential applicability to various quadrants of Traddieland, at least in the eyes of some.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 754
    • Reputation: +508/-94
    • Gender: Male
    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #21 on: March 28, 2024, 12:05:46 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • So you are basically saying that "ROCOR" (I have no idea what it means) is a serious institution and the fact that they consider the Moscow Patriarchate legitimate means that we should consider them valid?

    I am just rephrasing so I am sure I understand what you are saying.
    ROCOR = Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia

    https://www.synod.com/synod/indexeng.htm#gsc.tab=0

    In answer to your question, yes.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 754
    • Reputation: +508/-94
    • Gender: Male
    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #22 on: March 28, 2024, 12:08:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Just wondering, is this the way they justify marriage after divorce --- that the marriage once "had grace", but now it has "lost grace", and the spouses in this "graceless" marriage are now free to remarry (presumably after having repented and having done penance for whatever they did to make the grace disappear)?

    How convenient.
    No. The matter of an ecclesial body having grace or lacking grace and Byzantine matrimonial theology amongst the schismatics are wholly unrelated matters.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4388
    • Reputation: +1631/-194
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #23 on: March 28, 2024, 02:30:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No. The matter of an ecclesial body having grace or lacking grace and Byzantine matrimonial theology amongst the schismatics are wholly unrelated matters.
    I am sorry, I conflated this with the concept of sacraments having or lacking grace.

    But isn't there also a concept, amongst the schismatics, of being more able to say where grace is, than to say where it is not, and a fuzzier notion of sacramental validity? 

    For the Orthodox, everything seems to hinge on whether one is "in the Church" (i.e., in Orthodoxy) or not, and that sacraments outside of Orthodoxy are per se invalid (but the again, there's that "where grace is versus where grace is not" thing), but may be convalidated, after a fashion, once the (in their eyes) schismatic Christian is received into Orthodoxy?  I have in mind a Catholic priest (God forbid) becoming Orthodox, something about his being chrismated and (I think) vested, making his priestly orders valid without the orders themselves having to be conferred (either absolutely or conditionally)?

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 754
    • Reputation: +508/-94
    • Gender: Male
    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #24 on: March 28, 2024, 03:48:32 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I am sorry, I conflated this with the concept of sacraments having or lacking grace.

    But isn't there also a concept, amongst the schismatics, of being more able to say where grace is, than to say where it is not, and a fuzzier notion of sacramental validity? 

    For the Orthodox, everything seems to hinge on whether one is "in the Church" (i.e., in Orthodoxy) or not, and that sacraments outside of Orthodoxy are per se invalid (but the again, there's that "where grace is versus where grace is not" thing), but may be convalidated, after a fashion, once the (in their eyes) schismatic Christian is received into Orthodoxy?  I have in mind a Catholic priest (God forbid) becoming Orthodox, something about his being chrismated and (I think) vested, making his priestly orders valid without the orders themselves having to be conferred (either absolutely or conditionally)?
    Yes, for the Orthodox AND for Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine tradition, any mysteries (sacraments) celebrated outside the Church are without grace because the ecclesial body itself lacks grace since that body itself is separatrd from the Church.

    How this can be corrected is not uniform amongst the Byzantine churches. Some churches require a readministration of all sacraments of initiation. Other churches practice merely a rechrismation (and vesting if the deficient person was major cleric in their previous "lacking-grace" church). Still other churches simply require a profession of faith. Eastern Catholics, perpetually abused by Latins as they have been, have been forced to follow the practice of the Lstin Church for the past 125 years, especially since the promulgation of the Eastern Code of Canon Law in the 1990s, even if this directly contradicts their own theology and historic custom.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4388
    • Reputation: +1631/-194
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #25 on: March 29, 2024, 11:19:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, for the Orthodox AND for Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine tradition, any mysteries (sacraments) celebrated outside the Church are without grace because the ecclesial body itself lacks grace since that body itself is separatrd from the Church.

    How this can be corrected is not uniform amongst the Byzantine churches. Some churches require a readministration of all sacraments of initiation. Other churches practice merely a rechrismation (and vesting if the deficient person was major cleric in their previous "lacking-grace" church). Still other churches simply require a profession of faith. Eastern Catholics, perpetually abused by Latins as they have been, have been forced to follow the practice of the Lstin Church for the past 125 years, especially since the promulgation of the Eastern Code of Canon Law in the 1990s, even if this directly contradicts their own theology and historic custom.

    Just out of curiosity, would they admit (though it may be kind of a contradiction in terms) of sacraments that are valid, yet lack grace?

    They seem to use re-chrismation as a kind of sanatio in radice, to convey grace upon sacraments (such as Holy Orders) and to bring them under the omophor of the bishop.  Is that right?


    Offline Philip

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 60
    • Reputation: +30/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #26 on: March 29, 2024, 01:14:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Just out of curiosity, would they admit (though it may be kind of a contradiction in terms) of sacraments that are valid, yet lack grace?

    They seem to use re-chrismation as a kind of sanatio in radice, to convey grace upon sacraments (such as Holy Orders) and to bring them under the omophor of the bishop.  Is that right?
    I believe it depends on which Orthodox jurisdiction we are looking at.  Remember Moscow and Constantinople are no longer in communion with each other.  AFAIK the Russians, from before the Revolution, accepted Catholic priests as priests by chrismation.  Then the Russian Church in Exile, later ROCOR, went through a phase of baptising all converts.  I heard of ROCOR in the US baptising priests and then just vesting them as Orthodox priests.  They make no distinction whatsoever between priests ordained in the traditional rites by certainly valid bishops and new rite ordinations.  So the Russian church has convert former Catholic priests (ordained in the NO by NREC bishops) who have not been re-ordained. (My personal view is that NO priests ordained by NREC bishops are highly doubtful and to be avoided).

    My understanding is that the Greek jurisdiction chrismates convert clergy but also ordains them but I might be wrong on the latter point.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 754
    • Reputation: +508/-94
    • Gender: Male
    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #27 on: March 30, 2024, 07:06:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I believe it depends on which Orthodox jurisdiction we are looking at.
    BINGO! There is no monolithic Orthodox Church. Rather, it is a communion of Churches. (Our Catholic communion is supposed to be structured the same way, but the Latin Church sui juris is so massive that it overshadows the other Churches, making Catholicism monolithic and centralised.) Or, more correctly, several distinct communions: Constantinople, Moscow, Old Calendar/"True" Orthodox, and several autocephalous Churches not in communion with any others. Every group is distinct with its own customs for applying canons. The Eastern Catholic Churches would operate similarly amongst themselves but for the dominance of Latin practice and procedure mentioned parenthetically above that subsumes the Eastern Catholic Churches into western operating patterns.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila