Author Topic: Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary  (Read 278 times)

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Offline Vintagewife3

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Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary
« on: September 11, 2019, 01:31:49 PM »
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  • I"m in a discussion with a friend who has just recently told me that she left the church for Non-Denominational church because of the things she read in the bible. One of those things was that Mary and Joseph actually consummated their marriage after Jesus was born. 

    Attached is the 1 Book of Matthew verse 24 

     I don't know how to respond because the wording says something happened, but the Church says otherwise. 

    "24And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife.

    25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son; and He called him Jesus"

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary
    « Reply #1 on: September 11, 2019, 01:58:09 PM »
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  • "St. Luke says, speaking of the birth of our Saviour, that Mary brought forth her first-born son. Therefore, says a certain writer, if the evangelist affirms that Mary brought forth her first-born, is it to be supposed that she afterwards had other children? But the same author adds; If it is of faith that Mary had no other children according to the flesh except Jesus, then she must have other spiritual children, and these we are.

    Our Lord revealed this to St. Gertrude, who,reading one day the passage of the Gospel just quoted, was troubled, not knowing how to understand it, that Mary being mother of Jesus Christ alone, it could be said that he was her first-born. And God explained it to her, by telling her that Jesus was her first-born according to the flesh, but men were her second-born according to the spirit". - The Glories of Mary
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary
    « Reply #2 on: September 11, 2019, 02:09:53 PM »
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  • From the comments of the Douay-Rhiems online Bible:

    Quote
    [25] "Till she brought forth her firstborn son": From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.

    There are no new heresies; just old, recycled ones.

    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary
    « Reply #3 on: September 11, 2019, 03:00:51 PM »
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  • thank you. I relayed the information to her. She believes I have a bad bible.... I"m sad for her because she was raised Catholic, and she now believes the church has lied to her about everything. She believes we aren't to call priest Fathers, or confess to them (Just to one another), she doesn't believe we should pray to Mary and the Saints, she believes Mary wasn't sinless, and believes that baptism is optional. She was quite defensive when i told her that she already knew what she was doing is wrong, but she decided to bring up my past, my husbands sins then told me the old Matthew "judge not" quote (which is actually referring to hypocrites, and that would be her). I feel as if i've wasted the last two hours conversing with someone who knows the truth, and would rather risk hell then just go to confession. 

    Again, Thank you for helping me.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary
    « Reply #4 on: September 11, 2019, 03:01:16 PM »
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  • St. Jerome answered this stupid Protestant objection against Our Mother's virginity 1638 years ago in his Against Helvidius:
    Quote from: St. Jerome
    5. […] "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took unto him his wife and knew her not till she had brought forth a son, and he called his name Jesus." Here, first of all, it is quite needless for our opponent to show so elaborately that the word know has reference to coition, rather than to intellectual apprehension: as though anyone denied it, or any person in his senses could ever imagine the folly which Helvidius takes pains to refute. Then he would teach us that the adverb till implies a fixed and definite time, and when that is fulfilled, he says the event takes place which previously did not take place, as in the case before us, "and knew her not till she had brought forth a son." It is clear, says he, that she was known after she brought forth, and that that knowledge was only delayed by her engendering a son. To defend his position he piles up text upon text, waves his sword like a blind-folded gladiator, rattles his noisy tongue, and ends with wounding no one but himself.

    6. Our reply is briefly this — the words knew and till in the language of Holy Scripture are capable of a double meaning. As to the former, he himself gave us a dissertation to show that it must be referred to sexual intercourse, and no one doubts that it is often used of the knowledge of the understanding, as, for instance, "the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem, and his parents knew it not." Now we have to prove that just as in the one case he has followed the usage of Scripture, so with regard to the word till he is utterly refuted by the authority of the same Scripture, which often denotes by its use a fixed time (he himself told us so), frequently time without limitation, as when God by the mouth of the prophet says to certain persons, Isaiah 46:4 "Even to old age I am he." Will He cease to be God when they have grown old? And the Saviour in the Gospel tells the Apostles, Matthew 28:20 "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." Will the Lord then after the end of the world has come forsake His disciples, and at the very time when seated on twelve thrones they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel will they be bereft of the company of their Lord? Again Paul the Apostle writing to the Corinthians says, "Christ the first-fruits, afterward they that are Christ's, at his coming. Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet." Granted that the passage relates to our Lord's human nature, we do not deny that the words are spoken of Him who endured the cross and is commanded to sit afterwards on the right hand. What does he mean then by saying, "for he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet"? Is the Lord to reign only until His enemies begin to be under His feet, and once they are under His feet will He cease to reign? Of course His reign will then commence in its fullness when His enemies begin to be under His feet. David also in the fourth Song of Ascents speaks thus, "Behold, as the eyes of servants look unto the hand of their master, as the eyes of a maiden unto the hand of her mistress, so our eyes look unto the Lord our God, until he have mercy upon us." Will the prophet, then, look unto the Lord until he obtain mercy, and when mercy is obtained will he turn his eyes down to the ground? Although elsewhere he says, "My eyes fail for your salvation, and for the word of your righteousness." I could accumulate countless instances of this usage, and cover the verbosity of our assailant with a cloud of proofs; I shall, however, add only a few, and leave the reader to discover like ones for himself.

    7. The word of God says in Genesis, "And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand, and the rings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which was by Shechem, and lost them until this day." Likewise at the end of Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 34:5-6 "So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab over against Beth-peor: but no man knows of his sepulchre unto this day." We must certainly understand by this day the time of the composition of the history, whether you prefer the view that Moses was the author of the Pentateuch or that Ezra re-edited it. In either case I make no objection. The question now is whether the words unto this day are to be referred to the time of publishing or writing the books, and if so it is for him to show, now that so many years have rolled away since that day, that either the idols hidden beneath the oak have been found, or the grave of Moses discovered; for he obstinately maintains that what does not happen so long as the point of time indicated by until and unto has not been attained, begins to be when that point has been reached. He would do well to pay heed to the idiom of Holy Scripture, and understand with us, (it was here he stuck in the mud) that some things which might seem ambiguous if not expressed are plainly intimated, while others are left to the exercise of our intellect. For if, while the event was still fresh in memory and men were living who had seen Moses, it was possible for his grave to be unknown, much more may this be the case after the lapse of so many ages. And in the same way must we interpret what we are told concerning Joseph. The Evangelist pointed out a circumstance which might have given rise to some scandal, namely, that Mary was not known by her husband until she was delivered, and he did so that we might be the more certain that she from whom Joseph refrained while there was room to doubt the import of the vision was not known after her delivery.

    8. In short, what I want to know is why Joseph refrained until the day of her delivery? Helvidius will of course reply, because he heard the angel say, Matthew 1:20 "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." And in turn we rejoin that he had certainly heard him say, Matthew 1:20 "Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto you Mary your wife." The reason why he was forbidden to forsake his wife was that he might not think her an adulteress. Is it true then, that he was ordered not to have intercourse with his wife? Is it not plain that the warning was given him that he might not be separated from her? And could the just man dare, he says, to think of approaching her, when he heard that the Son of God was in her womb? Excellent! We are to believe then that the same man who gave so much credit to a dream that he did not dare to touch his wife, yet afterwards, when he had learned from the shepherds that the angel of the Lord had come from heaven and said to them, "Be not afraid: for behold I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people, for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord;" and when the heavenly host had joined with him in the chorus Luke 2:14 "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men of good will;" and when he had seen just Simeon embrace the infant and exclaim, "Now let your servant depart, O Lord, according to your word in peace: for my eyes have seen your salvation;" and when he had seen Anna the prophetess, the Magi, the Star, Herod, the angels; Helvidius, I say, would have us believe that Joseph, though well acquainted with such surprising wonders, dared to touch the temple of God, the abode of the Holy Ghost, the mother of his Lord? Mary at all events "kept all these sayings in her heart." You cannot for shame say Joseph did not know of them, for Luke tells us, Luke 2:33 "His father and mother were marvelling at the things which were spoken concerning Him." And yet you with marvellous effrontery contend that the reading of the Greek manuscripts is corrupt, although it is that which nearly all the Greek writers have left us in their books, and not only so, but several of the Latin writers have taken the words the same way. Nor need we now consider the variations in the copies, since the whole record both of the Old and New Testament has since that time been translated into Latin, and we must believe that the water of the fountain flows purer than that of the stream.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary
    « Reply #5 on: September 11, 2019, 03:46:56 PM »
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  • Could it be a simple matter of her justifying her sinful life and not facing reality? In which case, you can't do anything for but tell her the truth, which you have already done, and pray.

    There is none so blind as he who will not see.

    Offline Troubled30

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    Re: Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary
    « Reply #6 on: September 11, 2019, 07:08:50 PM »
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  • thank you. I relayed the information to her. She believes I have a bad bible.... I"m sad for her because she was raised Catholic, and she now believes the church has lied to her about everything. She believes we aren't to call priest Fathers, or confess to them (Just to one another), she doesn't believe we should pray to Mary and the Saints, she believes Mary wasn't sinless, and believes that baptism is optional. She was quite defensive when i told her that she already knew what she was doing is wrong, but she decided to bring up my past, my husbands sins then told me the old Matthew "judge not" quote (which is actually referring to hypocrites, and that would be her). I feel as if i've wasted the last two hours conversing with someone who knows the truth, and would rather risk hell then just go to confession.

    Again, Thank you for helping me.
    She has "answers" to all the things you can say because people is programmed at those cults.
    If you say the real meaning of this Bible passage.... she will say you have a bad Bible, a bad translation, etc.
    Its like a Jack Chick tract.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Understanding the wording about Joseph and Mary
    « Reply #7 on: September 12, 2019, 05:36:41 AM »
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  • I feel as if i've wasted the last two hours conversing with someone who knows the truth, and would rather risk hell then just go to confession.
    You actually did waste that time because she knows better yet rejects truth, of her own free will she chooses certain hell over the holy hope for heaven. She needs prayers.

    Your friend exemplifies what St. Therese said, something that Fr. Wathen put into a sermon..... "Among all the mysteries that we live amongst, is that of the fact that God saves those whom He wills. And yet those who are lost are lost because they will. No one is saved against his will and no one is damned against his will..."





    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


     

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