Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Matthew on September 22, 2018, 09:06:35 AM

Title: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Matthew on September 22, 2018, 09:06:35 AM
Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
By Robert Gearty  (http://www.foxnews.com/person/g/robert-gearty.html)| Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/)

(http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/us/2018/09/22/two-sleeping-indiana-teens-shot-dead-by-father-who-kills-himself/_jcr_content/par/featured_image/media-0.img.jpg/931/524/1537622780680.jpg?ve=1&tl=1&text=big-top-image)
Yearbook photos of (l.) Shelby Hunn, 13, and her 15-year-old brother hαɾɾιsion Hunn.  (Fox 59 Indianapolis )
An Indiana teen and his 13-year-old sister were sleeping when they were shot dead by their father who then killed himself.
Deputies found the bodies Friday morning in rural home in Boone County, Fox 59 Indianapolis (https://fox59.com/2018/09/21/investigation-underway-after-father-and-kids-found-dead-in-boone-county/) reported.
“I spoke to the family and spoke to the mother who is devastated obviously, but she did not see this happening at all,” Boone County Mike Nielson said, according to the station.
hαɾɾιson Hunn, 15, and Shelby Hunn, 13, were found in their bedrooms, the station reported.
Michael Hunn, 50, shared custody of the two children with his ex-wife Stephanie Reece, according to the station.
School officials called Reece Friday to ask why hαɾɾιson and Shelby weren't in school, the sheriff said.
She called deputies after she went to the house and no one answered the door.
Court records show there was a petition filed for contempt last month and a court date was scheduled for next week, the station reported.
The petition accused Hunn of failing to pay child support, the Indianapolis Star (https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2018/09/21/police-investigating-deaths-rural-boone-county/1381293002/) reported.

Reece was the girls' tennis coach at her son’s high school, the paper reported.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Matthew on September 22, 2018, 09:10:09 AM
The man was obviously desperate. He probably lost his job, and couldn't find work. This impending court date charging him with "contempt" for failing to pay child support certainly had something to do with this man's horrible choice.

The system is rigged against men. What happens if a guy can't find work? How is he supposed to pay child support?

He was probably scared he was going to lose his kids, have them turned against him by his ex-wife, etc.  This kind of thinking motivates a lot of murders. "If I can't have him/her/them then no one will." with a bit of "I'll kill ____ before ___ can be corrupted" thrown in. Such motivation is not morally legitimate, but it is very human thinking which reappears all the time in various crime stories.

Note that he was divorced. This is not normal or natural. Marriages need to be a lot more permanent than they are today. Divorce is way too easy. Men and women divorce their spouse just because they're bored, want to give up when the slightest difficulties emerge, and/or move on to the next new, exciting thing (person).
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Matto on September 22, 2018, 09:45:09 AM
The man was obviously desperate. He probably lost his job, and couldn't find work. This impending court date charging him with "contempt" for failing to pay child support certainly had something to do with this man's horrible choice.
. . .
The system is rigged against men. What happens if a guy can't find work? How is he supposed to pay child support?

He was probably scared he was going to lose his kids, have them turned against him by his ex-wife, etc.  This kind of thinking motivates a lot of murders.
. . .
Note that he was divorced. This is not normal or natural. Marriages need to be a lot more permanent than they are today. Divorce is way too easy. Men and women divorce their spouse just because they're bored, want to give up when the slightest difficulties emerge, and/or move on to the next new, exciting thing (person).
This post makes you sound like a MGTOW.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Jaynek on September 22, 2018, 09:54:57 AM
This post makes you sound like a MGTOW.
Sounded reasonable to me .  It's pretty clear  that the system is unfair to men. 
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Matto on September 22, 2018, 10:03:12 AM
Sounded reasonable to me .  It's pretty clear  that the system is unfair to men.
I agree and think those points are reasonable as well.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Cantarella on September 22, 2018, 10:07:35 AM
Italy’s proposed new divorce law would ‘turn back the clock 50 years on women’s rights,’ critics say (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/18/italys-proposed-new-divorce-law-would-turn-back-clock-years-womens-rights-critics-say/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.51950bcbd2fd)
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: JezusDeKoning on September 22, 2018, 10:53:00 AM
At the end of the day, you can't fix crazy. And clearly someone who kills their own kids is not right.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: TKGS on September 22, 2018, 03:18:58 PM
At the end of the day, you can't fix crazy. And clearly someone who kills their own kids is not right.
It happens thousands of times a day.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 22, 2018, 04:19:44 PM
.
What a tragedy for everyone concerned, especially the children. What did they do wrong? Horrible. 
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Ladislaus on September 22, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
Well, you wouldn't normally get charged with contempt if you fail to pay because you lost your job ... unless you quit and/or refused to look for another one.

I'm sorry, but I do NOT understand this, Matthew.  Assuming that I had no moral inhibitions against it, if I were desperate, I might kill myself ... but never my children.  I'm guessing that he had gotten so bitter and hateful against his wife that he did this to make her suffer.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: forlorn on September 22, 2018, 04:52:18 PM
I think you're being way too sympathetic to the man here. While obviously the system is rigged against men and his suffering was likely a large part of his mental instability, the fact that he killed his kids is still horrifying and inexcusable no matter the circuмstances. 

I agree with all your conclusions(that marriage needs to be more permanent, divorces are rigged against men, these horrendous divorces cause these murders), but your lack of a condemnation of the man is I think what made it sound MGTOW-ish to Matto. He's still guilty for his evil actions no matter how hard his life was. 
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Miseremini on September 22, 2018, 05:05:07 PM
A lot of assumptions in favor of the murderer here.

What about the women who get a divorce because they're in fear for their lives and their childrens' and the courts still give joint custody, THEN, the husband abducts, and like in this case, murders his family.

This scenario pops up in the news all too frequently.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Quid Retribuam Domino on September 22, 2018, 05:32:07 PM
The system is rigged against men. What happens if a guy can't find work? How is he supposed to pay child support?

If a woman is unable to financially support her child, she receives public housing.

If a man is unable to financially provide child support, he is sent to prison.

A woman who doesn't want to take care of her kid - "Pro-Choice"

A man who doesn't want to take care of his kid - Deadbeat Dad

Female privilege is pervasive in modern thought, law and services.

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42294790_1540748349403759_2768035014145736704_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&oh=e41de4c08a46e5fee347db235284f75e&oe=5C27D02B

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42329655_1540745476070713_7156564775369965568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&oh=72342d2fdf95649f391e208e90bacb80&oe=5C2AB014
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: dymphnaw on September 25, 2018, 07:55:34 AM
This man was a drunk who chose to murder his kids. 
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: TKGS on September 25, 2018, 07:57:25 AM
This man was a drunk who chose to murder his kids.
And...?
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Jaynek on September 25, 2018, 12:35:34 PM

I agree with all your conclusions(that marriage needs to be more permanent, divorces are rigged against men, these horrendous divorces cause these murders), but your lack of a condemnation of the man is I think what made it sound MGTOW-ish to Matto. He's still guilty for his evil actions no matter how hard his life was.

Matthew clearly did condemn the man . Matthew referred to the murder as a "horrible choice" and stated that the man's reasoning was not "morally legitimate". 

I saw no suggestion that this man was not guilty. The point was that flaws in society probably contributed to this horrible crime. 

This crime was not an isolated incident that occurred simply because one man happened to be evil or crazy. It fits a recurring pattern .  Analyzing the problems with the system does not excuse the man. It may, however, help to prevent future murders. 
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Ladislaus on September 25, 2018, 02:33:35 PM
Matthew clearly did condemn the man . Matthew referred to the murder as a "horrible choice" and stated that the man's reasoning was not "morally legitimate".

I don't know.  "Horrible choice" and "not morally legitimate" are pretty soft and understated.  You could say the same things about someone who shoplifted some Jєωelry from a store.  I would call this a demonic crime.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Jaynek on September 25, 2018, 03:23:23 PM
I don't know.  "Horrible choice" and "not morally legitimate" are pretty soft and understated.  You could say the same things about someone who shoplifted some Jєωelry from a store.  I would call this a demonic crime.
Some people tend to speak/write with less emotionalism than others, preferring a logical, analytical approach.  I am like this myself.  We are often accused of not caring about a matter or not understanding its moral implications.  This, however, is not so.  

I suspect that Matthew also is one of these people.  He typically writes intellectually rather than ranting emotionally.  This may come across as "soft and understated" but this is misleading.  I am reasonably certain that he understands just how wrong this murder was.  This would not prevent him from rationally analyzing it in its larger societal context.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: JezusDeKoning on September 25, 2018, 06:15:40 PM
It is also against the Fifth Commandment. That is all we need.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Ladislaus on September 25, 2018, 07:06:22 PM
"Bad choice" is a typical modern euphemism used to diminish the responsibility of the perpetrator and separate the subject from the act.  When public figures are caught committing adultery, for instance, they'll often issue a public apology in terms of regretting their poor choice ... instead of lamenting their SIN and the harm they caused their spouse ... as if we're speaking about a poor selection of breakfast cereal from among the various brands.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Jaynek on September 26, 2018, 05:03:44 AM
"Bad choice" is a typical modern euphemism used to diminish the responsibility of the perpetrator and separate the subject from the act.  When public figures are caught committing adultery, for instance, they'll often issue a public apology in terms of regretting their poor choice ... instead of lamenting their SIN and the harm they caused their spouse ... as if we're speaking about a poor selection of breakfast cereal from among the various brands.

While some people may use "bad choice" that way, I see no reason to read it into a comment by a knowledgeable Catholic.  I saw Matthew's use of the expression "horrible choice" as an allusion to free will, with the implication that the man was morally responsible for what he chose to do.  It did not diminish the seriousness of the sin.

Every single person on this forum recognizes that this father committed a horrendously evil action.  Even the morally deficient products of secular society could understand this.  There is not any debate or controversy on the matter.  Personally, I see no point in a thread filled with exclamations of horror and denunciations of sin when everybody already grasps this.  It seems more useful to discuss the more subtle aspects of the story.  There is more involved here than one man's evil act.  It is also a symptom of the evils of society.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Ladislaus on September 26, 2018, 08:30:19 AM
While some people may use "bad choice" that way, I see no reason to read it into a comment by a knowledgeable Catholic.

I'm not reading anything into it.  I simply disagreed with his choice of language.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Jaynek on September 26, 2018, 08:45:00 AM
I'm not reading anything into it.  I simply disagreed with his choice of language.
He didn't even say "bad choice".  He said "horrible choice".  You replaced his choice of words with something softer while complaining that it was too soft. 
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Ladislaus on September 26, 2018, 08:59:31 AM
He didn't even say "bad choice".  He said "horrible choice".  You replaced his choice of words with something softer while complaining that it was too soft.

I said that "bad choice" was commonly used today.  He strengthened it slightly, but the essence of it being simply a choice, vs. a sin, and distancing the subject from the act is the same.

Bottom line:  it was too weak and plays into the commonly-used modern euphemisms that understate the gravity of sin.

Several other posters on this thread came away with the same impression, that he was understating the gravity of the crime ... primarily with his use of language.  So it wasn't just me.
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: Jaynek on September 26, 2018, 09:15:21 AM
I said that "bad choice" was commonly used today.  He strengthened it slightly, but the essence of it being simply a choice, vs. a sin, and distancing the subject from the act is the same.

Bottom line:  it was too weak and plays into the commonly-used modern euphemisms that understate the gravity of sin.

Several other posters on this thread came away with the same impression, that he was understating the gravity of the crime ... primarily with his use of language.  So it wasn't just me.
Part of the definition of sin is that it is an act of the will, i.e. a choice.  There is nothing about referring to something as a choice that implies it is not a sin. In this case it was very obvious that he was discussing a sin .

Some of us thought there was no need to state the obvious while others wanted it spelled out in strong language. I suppose we are all entitled to our opinions. 
Title: Re: Two sleeping Indiana teens shot dead by father who kills himself
Post by: dymphnaw on September 26, 2018, 10:32:08 AM
And...?
And I don't want to hear any excuses for him. Yes the court system is rigged but decent men lay down their lives in defense of their children. They do not  kill them because their support is too much.