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Author Topic: Trying to Convert a Greek Orthodox Young Man- Anything I Could Improve Upon?  (Read 871 times)

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Offline SaintsSoaring

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Hello,

I was conversing with a Greek Orthodox young man who was trying to convert me (of course, he cannot , but I figure this is an opportunity to convert him). 
I said: "If you can tell me which one of your Orthodox saints had the stigmata, I will consider it." [I was not going to consider it, just trying to start a conversation]
He said: "It contradicts the Orthodox balanced position on Incarnation, Death and Resurrection, emphasizing on Christ's suffering on the cross. We understand Christ's suffering on the cross to have been once and for all. Experiencing the stigmata would not be in keeping with this understanding."
I said: "What about the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion"?
He said:"Yes, but God rewards us with Grace, not suffering."
I quoted some Scripture [I am hoping I used the Scripture in the right context for this]:
"And if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him." (Romans 8:17)
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake." (Philipians 1:29)
"But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the Name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you." (1 Peter 4:13-14)
And then I said, "I am not sure if same context, but suffering will help us reach Christ.
He said:"This is not proof enough for stigmata. Suffering yes, but God does not reward it to us. Peace and Grace. Suffering may be a means of obtaining Grace, but not a reward."
I said: "If you can explain St. Padre Pio and St. Francis of Assisi [meaning their stigmata], I will consider it [meaning 'converting']
He said: "Perhaps another time. Not because I can't, but because I am tired."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Isn't St. Padre Pio's stigmata- pictural and docuмented proof of a stigmata- enough to say that stigmatas are real? 
Is there anything that I can improve in the future during evangelization? Do I have any strong points?
Please pray for his conversion. He is a very intelligent young man, and he would be evenmoreso if he held true to the Catholic Faith.


Online Nadir

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  • What is your relationship with this young man?

    I don't think stigmata is a good topic to discuss as it is not a part of the deposit of faith, besides stigmata is not necessarily supernatural, but could also be preternatural, though of course the stigmata of St Pio and St Francis is supernatural.

    How sincere is he in his practice of his religion? How much of his religion is merely cultural?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Centroamerica

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  •      To say you would consider it is deceptive to say the least. It also demonstrates to him that you may not be so firm in your Faith and would have the opposite effect in converting him. It would make him least interested in the Catholic Faith. After all, you would, under certain conditions, consider abandoning it. 
          We cannot do evil that good may come of it. Even though your intentions are well meaning, as St. Bernard of Clairvaux says: L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs...
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • I was conversing with a Greek Orthodox young man who was trying to convert me
    The discussion posted reads like the blind leading the blind and neither one conceding the leadership to the other. 

    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. (1 Tim 2:12) 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline poche

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  • What is your relationship with God. Conversion comes from holiness of life and inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


    Offline OHCA

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  • What is your relationship with God. Conversion comes from holiness of life and inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    Conversion [evangelization] is solemn nonsense, Poche.  Frank has spoken.

    Offline Mega-fin

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  • I think first and foremost, whenever the topic of converting other people comes up, people always think about talking. While yes we need to share the truth of the Catholic faith, we need to be doing more prayer and penance for their conversion then we do talking. This is what Our Lady of Fatima gave us to convert souls, prayer and penance. Without the grace of God, souls will never budge. 
    Please disregard everything I have said; I have tended to speak before fact checking.

    Online Nadir

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  • If your interest is romantic, be warned that greek orthodox believe in and practice divorce - at least they can divorce and remarry twice in the Orthodox church. Ask him how that works!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline poche

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  • Conversion [evangelization] is solemn nonsense, Poche.  Frank has spoken.
    Conversion doesn't come from debates and arguments, it comes form holiness of life. If we are not living the holiness of life that God is calling us to live then why should we expect others to join us?  

    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • Hello,

    I was conversing with a Greek Orthodox young man who was trying to convert me (of course, he cannot , but I figure this is an opportunity to convert him).
    I said: "If you can tell me which one of your Orthodox saints had the stigmata, I will consider it." [I was not going to consider it, just trying to start a conversation]
    He said: "It contradicts the Orthodox balanced position on Incarnation, Death and Resurrection, emphasizing on Christ's suffering on the cross. We understand Christ's suffering on the cross to have been once and for all. Experiencing the stigmata would not be in keeping with this understanding."
    I said: "What about the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion"?
    He said:"Yes, but God rewards us with Grace, not suffering."
    I quoted some Scripture [I am hoping I used the Scripture in the right context for this]:
    "And if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him." (Romans 8:17)
    "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake." (Philipians 1:29)
    "But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the Name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you." (1 Peter 4:13-14)
    And then I said, "I am not sure if same context, but suffering will help us reach Christ.
    He said:"This is not proof enough for stigmata. Suffering yes, but God does not reward it to us. Peace and Grace. Suffering may be a means of obtaining Grace, but not a reward."
    I said: "If you can explain St. Padre Pio and St. Francis of Assisi [meaning their stigmata], I will consider it [meaning 'converting']
    He said: "Perhaps another time. Not because I can't, but because I am tired."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Isn't St. Padre Pio's stigmata- pictural and docuмented proof of a stigmata- enough to say that stigmatas are real?
    Is there anything that I can improve in the future during evangelization? Do I have any strong points?
    Please pray for his conversion. He is a very intelligent young man, and he would be evenmoreso if he held true to the Catholic Faith.
    .
    In my experience with various Orthodox persons, it seems they have a lot of resistance to the topic of the stigmata.
    .
    They don't think that anyone could possibly have the crucifixion wounds of Our Lord for whatever reason.
    .
    When I mention St. Francis of Assisi they disagree and say that was too long ago so there must be a mistake.
    .
    Then when I bring up Padre Pio, they claim to have never heard of him.
    .
    So then I tell a few stories and they shake their heads and say that's impossible.
    .
    But here's the rub -- a group of Coptic Orthodox took the occasion to tell me about a great miracle that occurred in Egypt in about the 8th century. I patiently listened to them describe how a whole city full of Christians were going to be executed by a Moslem horde that had overrun their city. A famous leader among the Christians (forgot his name) made a bargain with their leader to which it was agreed that if he could show them his Christian God could move a mountain they would be left in peace. So thousands of people lined up in front of a mountain, and at his signal all the Christians genuflected and made the sign of the Cross, and the mountain rose up in the air and came down BOOM onto the ground. The Moslems didn't believe their eyes so the Christians did it again and this time the mountain rose up high enough for the sunlight to be seen underneath it, then slammed down on the ground, rose up again, slammed down, and did this several times until the Moslems broke down and relinquished out of terror.
    .
    So I listened to this story and I did not doubt them. 
    .
    And I asked them, since I am willing to believe your story, why are you unwilling to believe mine?
    .
    They couldn't answer that.
    .
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    He said:"This is not proof enough for stigmata. Suffering yes, but God does not reward it to us. Peace and Grace. Suffering may be a means of obtaining Grace, but not a reward."
    I agree with the other posts that the stigmata is not a good topic to discuss; too unusual a circuмstance, and hard for a layman to really explain/understand.

    However, I will correct his logic above.  He's saying that the stigmata is not a "reward".  Ok, fine.  But grace isn't a "reward" either, for none of us can "earn" anything.  Further, God often gives suffering to saints because they will accept it, and so they will obtain MORE grace, and often, they will obtain graces for others who are too selfish and sinful to accept their own sufferings/grace.  Therefore, the stigmata is not a "reward" but an opportunity...an opportunity for certain saints to suffer at a high level, to thereby sanctify themselves to a high degree and to win conversion of others.  Certainly, Padre Pio and St Francis suffered for others and helped a great many people to save their souls.  The stigmata is a sign from God that a person is charitable enough to suffer for God's will and purpose.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • I agree with the other posts that the stigmata is not a good topic to discuss; too unusual a circuмstance, and hard for a layman to really explain/understand.

    However, I will correct his logic above.  He's saying that the stigmata is not a "reward".  Ok, fine.  But grace isn't a "reward" either, for none of us can "earn" anything.  Further, God often gives suffering to saints because they will accept it, and so they will obtain MORE grace, and often, they will obtain graces for others who are too selfish and sinful to accept their own sufferings/grace.  Therefore, the stigmata is not a "reward" but an opportunity...an opportunity for certain saints to suffer at a high level, to thereby sanctify themselves to a high degree and to win conversion of others.  Certainly, Padre Pio and St Francis suffered for others and helped a great many people to save their souls.  The stigmata is a sign from God that a person is charitable enough to suffer for God's will and purpose.
    .
    Fr. Nicholas Gruner had a very interesting development of this doctrine. He didn't quote his source but I expect it was a saint, like Montfort or Kolbe. He said that most of us can aim at doing sufficient penance and gaining graces sufficient to save our own soul, while many do not achieve even that much. Still others do penance and gain graces sufficient for their own salvation and also for the salvation of certain others as well -- these who do so are the saints of the Church. But only one saint has done sufficient penance and has gained sufficient graces for the salvation of all the souls in the world, and that one is the Blessed Virgin Mary.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline jvk

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  • The gift of faith, and hence conversion, is a gift of God.  Someone will not be converted by anybody's arguments alone; they need that divine spark to enlighten their minds and open it to the acceptance of truth.