Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and cօռspιʀαcιҽs (Read 8746 times)

icterus · « **on:** December 01, 2013, 06:32:22 PM »

So, I am a weird sort of person. I am very interested in Catholic Tradition...the Mass...the theolgy...I very easily see how prevalent modernism is in the Church. I think the superiority (to say the least, I'm just trying to be broad here) of the Latin Mass is so very, very obvious. I think it's beyond obvious that the soteriology (salvation theology) taught in the modern Church is not really compatible with Catholic Tradition.

All of these things are easy for me. But.

I find that I can never really connect with my traditional Catholic brethren, because they all believe various cօռspιʀαcιҽs, and I seem incapable of it.

I could lie about it. I know *about* conspiracy theories. I can quote facts about WTC7. It's easy. But, I don't want to be dishonest. So, I admit it. I have no faith at all in conspiracy theories.

So, what I am wondering...is it possible to be a Traditional Catholic without believing in conspiracy theories? I'm not sure. Can I believe that VII went haywire without believing that it was because of a Masonic conspiracy? It seems to me that I can, but I'm not sure.

Can believe that JPII was kinda wacko, you know, naturally, without claiming he was serving some other organization in secret?

Or, is this illogical? Is conspiracy part of Traditionalism?

I have had people answer both yes and no to this. I'm unsure. I do think that a belief in cօռspιʀαcιҽs makes it easier to be Traditionalist. But, is it a logical requirement?

Your thoughts, please. Thank you.

Mabel · « **Reply #1 on:** December 01, 2013, 06:45:18 PM »

Nope. While I acknowledge that cօռspιʀαcιҽs are possible, I don't think I'm important enough to be in the know.

While I hold we are in a state of sede vacante, my basis for that is not what I don't know or could theorize. Rather, I just use the facts and evidence to make a determination about what to do because I know something is wrong.

I don't relate well to those who play the conspiracy card (Jєωs, Masons, etc) in order to justify whatever it is that they are saying. Again, I'm not saying there are not sinister people or forces in the world, I just don't have proof that I believe I can present. And there is nothing I can do about it, so it's better for me to focus living and practicing the Faith.

Matto · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2013, 06:49:22 PM »

The history of the Church since John XXIII is the history of the greatest and most important successful conspiracy in history. Do you think evil conquers without conspiring first?

Cera · « **Reply #3 on:** December 01, 2013, 06:50:59 PM »

As a recently-retired professor of sociology who often taught courses in social-psychology, and who researched and wrote on the phenomenon of cognitive dissonance, I have found that what most people mean when they say "conspiracy theories" is anything which causes them to feel uncomfortable. This uncomfortable feeling is cognitive dissonance; it is the cause of people going into denial. Facts which make people uncomfortable are not "conspiracy theories." Facts which people refuse to research are not "conspiracy theories." Facts which do not fit in with the context with which a person is familiar are not "conspiracy theories." Those of us who deal with facts which cause people to feel uncomfortable are quite used to people who use the term "conspiracy theory" when we have only put forward facts. The truth of what is going on in this present darkness requires three things: courage to face the facts, a context with which to understand the facts, and the grace to overcome one's cognitive dissonance. Lacking these three, those who are not yet able to deal with reality often fall back on the media-generated term "conspiracy theory" in order to attack the messenger and to protect themselves emotionally.

For example, let's us 911 as an example. If someone points to such facts as building number 7, Larry Silverstein, William Rodriguez, the passport of one of the terrorists magically floating intact to the ground (as reported in the N.Y. Times), etc. . . None of these easily-researched facts are "conspiracy theory;" only if someone were to play a game somewhat like the children's game of Clue, by guessing "I think the crime was committed by _____ in the _______ using the _____. " Such speculation could be fairly labeled as "conspiracy theory."

However, if someone is not engaging in speculation; but is simply putting forward facts -- that is not "conspiracy theory." When I point out to friends that the government story simply does not make sense, they ask me what the explanation is. My response is that I deal only with facts; I do not engage in speculation.

My question to you is: are you really talking about people who are engaging in "conspiracy theory"?

icterus · « **Reply #4 on:** December 01, 2013, 06:57:18 PM »

Quote

My question to you is: are you really talking about people who are engaging in "conspiracy theory"?

Per your explanation, yes, it seems so.

LoverOfTradition · « **Reply #5 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:02:22 PM »

It was Our Lady of Good Success Herself who said Masonry would ravage the vineyard. Enough said.

jen51 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:02:44 PM »

I've never seen any writings in Catechisms, in writing of the saints or scripture that says we must. So, no. That is to say, your unwillingness to engage in conspiracy theories makes you no less of a Catholic. I'd rest easy.

Mabel · « **Reply #7 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:13:55 PM »

Quote from: jen51

I've never seen any writings in Catechisms, in writing of the saints or scripture that says we must. So, no. That is to say, your unwillingness to engage in conspiracy theories makes you no less of a Catholic. I'd rest easy.

Good advice, Jen!

Lighthouse · « **Reply #8 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:22:32 PM »

Well, there is one overaching conspiracy, that Satan is liar and the father of all liars. Devils are active in this world and constantly winning converts who are devious like their father.

The only cօռspιʀαcιҽs a Catholic need believe are in the instructions of the Church.

TheKnightVigilant · « **Reply #9 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:26:22 PM »

"Woe to you that are deep of heart, to hide your counsel from the Lord: and their works are in the dark, and they say: Who seeth us, and who knoweth us?" Isaiah 29:15

If you don't believe that evil men conspire against Jesus Christ and his followers you are simply naive and need to educate yourself on the matter.

Cantarella · « **Reply #10 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:34:34 PM »

You can be a traditional Catholic and not necessarily believe in all those conspiracy theories. As long as you hold the Faith itself.

I am afraid that some of these conspiracy theories are making perfect sense, though.

Anthony Benedict · « **Reply #11 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:34:42 PM »

Thanks for tossing this one out there, icterus.

Since little Oog came racing back into the cave after being nearly squashed by a mastodon and Boog settled him down with a nice story, folks have been looking for explanations for the past, present and future.

The more info you have, the more info you have - period. None of it may be worth squat or it all may be gold plated and you may or you may not be able to actually do anything with it.

Which is probably why secularists hate the Church so much. We at least DO have certainties, but they haven't got much to do with who's up or down and when and how this or that may or may not happen.

The only constant is uncertainty when it comes to nature and man. So, if one wishes to speculate, feel free.

Just don't expect: A) Expect people to care or B) to be right very often.

icterus · « **Reply #12 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:36:59 PM »

Quote

If you don't believe that evil men conspire against Jesus Christ and his followers you are simply naive and need to educate yourself on the matter.

I keep failing at it.

I educate myself on something (like 9/11. Or the moon landing. Or VII. Or the Kennedy assassination) and I somehow always manage to end up convinced that it happened in a simple way, and pretty much the official version is true.

Honestly, I sometimes wonder if there is something wrong with me.

I even think the Federal Reserve works pretty much in the way it is claimed to, that Fractional Reserve banking is sort of reasonable, and I don't think the Rothschild family is very important these days. I don't think Genetically Modified Corn is harmful, I never worried about Candida yeast in my body then, and I don't worry about gluten now. I think fluoride in the water probably helped my teeth. I think the electoral college mostly votes according to actual poll results in the various states, and I really doubt Obama is a Muslim (he's a typical atheist, it appears to me). I don't think any black boxes in my car allow the government to render it immobile, I don't think cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs are being readied for any particular class of Americans, and I don't think the Homeland Security Administration is buying ammo for a coup against the government. I don't believe aliens landed at Roswell or anywhere else. I think Neil Armstrong walked on the actual moon. I figure TWA800 blew up because of a maintenance problem, not a missile. Lone gunman. Etc.

I seem so different.

Cuthbert · « **Reply #13 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:46:59 PM »

I suppose that the study carried out by Caen University in France which proved that genetically modified maize invariably causes massive tumours was really just a French attempt to subvert the mighty Jєωιѕн, sorry I mean American Empire. The Soviet Gulag camps put fluoride into the drinking water of the inmates, that must have been because they cared about them so very much, we all know that Stalin was one of the kindliest & most sentimental of men. Maybe you should stop watching the goggle box & letting it do your thinking for you icterus, just a thought.....

Cuthbert · « **Reply #14 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:59:28 PM »

Fractional Reserve banking is kind of reasonable.....yeah, enriching & giving incredible power to an oligarchy of blood-sucking Christ-hating parasites is kind of reasonable isn't it. I know it must be awfully painful but you must make the effort to actually think.