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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Three conditions required for a Catholic Martyrdom
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2019, 01:37:13 AM »
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  • Holy Innocents: their deaths are described in 2nd volume of the City of God.  The babes were given reason so that they were martyrs for Christ.
    City of God is private revelation, we do not base our faith on private revelation when it opposes dogma and tradition. Besides, even if they received reason, Herod didn't kill them because they were Christians, he did not even know that the infant Jesus was a Christian, he didn't know what a Christian was (2 - "the infliction of death by an enemy out of hatred for Christianity") . He simply killed the infants to get rid of his competitor. Also, I would think that all of the dead infants since the beginning of the world till Christ's Ascencion, went to heaven in the same way as the Holy Innocents, they went to Paradise, Limbo of the Patriarch's, then after the Ascencion, Heaven was opened and they went to Heaven. Although, the Holy Innocents would have a higher position in Heaven, up with the Martyrs.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Three conditions required for a Catholic Martyrdom
    « Reply #16 on: February 12, 2019, 04:17:53 AM »
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  • City of God is private revelation, we do not base our faith on private revelation when it opposes dogma and tradition. Besides, even if they received reason, Herod didn't kill them because they were Christians, he did not even know that the infant Jesus was a Christian, he didn't know what a Christian was (2 - "the infliction of death by an enemy out of hatred for Christianity") . He simply killed the infants to get rid of his competitor. Also, I would think that all of the dead infants since the beginning of the world till Christ's Ascencion, went to heaven in the same way as the Holy Innocents, they went to Paradise, Limbo of the Patriarch's, then after the Ascencion, Heaven was opened and they went to Heaven. Although, the Holy Innocents would have a higher position in Heaven, up with the Martyrs.
    Noone has said they were martyred because they were Christians. But what Songbird said "The babes were given reason so that they were martyrs for Christ". There were no Christians until after Pentecost. It is neither against the Faith nor is it unreasonable to believe they were given reason.
    .
    Here is the story of St Cyr, a martyr at 3 years of age, who was inspired by the Holy Ghost to respond as an adult would to his mother's persecutor.


    Sts Cyricus & Julitta (16 June)

    St Cyricus was martyred at 3, along with his mother, Julitta, a noble lady of Icona, during the fierce persecution of Catholics under the Emperor Diocletian (284-305). In order to escape persecution, she took refuge at Tarsus in Cilicia with her child. She was recognized as a Catholic, reported to the authorities, and brought before the tribunal of the prefect Alexander. As her two servants took flight, she had to bring her small son with her.
     
     When Julitta refused to pray to the idols, the prefect took the child from her arms and ordered her to be whipped with raw thongs. At the sight of his mother’s tortures, Cyricus began to shed tears. Alexander tried to quiet him with caresses and kind words. But he repulsed these blandishments with honor and scratched Alexander’s face with his nails, crying out, “I am a Christian!”


    Astonished, the prefect asked him who had taught him to speak. Cyricus answered, “Thy lack of wit is a wonder to me, that seeing my age, you need ask who instructed me in the knowledge of the true God! I am a Christian!” Here is a toddler barely at the age of speaking, certainly not at the age of reason, whom the Holy Ghost inspires to declare, “I am a Christian.” Enraged, Alexander hurled the child down, dashing his head on the steps and killing him.

    Julitta, filled with joy, gave thanks to God that Cyricus had gone before her into the heavenly realm. She did not have to wonder, “What will happen to my boy? Will he grow up in the pagan court and reject the true Faith?” She did not concede, and she was given the consolation to see that God provided for her son in a better way than she could have, insuring that they would not be separated in death. She herself was then flayed, plunged in boiling pitch, and at last beheaded.
     
     To prevent them from being buried by the Catholics, the prefect ordered their bodies to be cut up and scattered in different places. But an Angel collected the members and they were buried by the Catholics under cover of night. Later, when peace was restored to the Church, an aged serving woman made known the resting place of the two bodies.


    Devotion to the mother-son martyrs grew, especially in France, after Bishop St Amator of Auxerre brought some relics to the monastery of St Armand in the Tournai in the 4th century. Also, Charlemagne had a devotion to Cyricus and restored a cathedral dedicated to him.

    St Cyricus is the St Cyr found in several French place names.




    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Three conditions required for a Catholic Martyrdom
    « Reply #17 on: February 12, 2019, 08:34:15 AM »
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  • City of God is private revelation, we do not base our faith on private revelation when it opposes dogma and tradition.

    I don't see this as being opposed to dogma and tradition.  BoB was not even in play here as this was before Baptism had been instituted.

    While they were not killed for being Christians, they were killed on account of Jesus Christ ... with Herod attempting to cut off the reign of Christ the King.

    What's very interesting about the City of God account is that it addresses speculation regarding the potential ex opere operato effect of any type of BoB.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Three conditions required for a Catholic Martyrdom
    « Reply #18 on: February 12, 2019, 12:57:26 PM »
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  • What's very interesting about the City of God account is that it addresses speculation regarding the potential ex opere operato effect of any type of BoB.
    Please explain further. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Three conditions required for a Catholic Martyrdom
    « Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 01:27:05 PM »
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  • Please explain further.

    Since they were endowed with reason, they could actually willingly embrace their martyrdom.  So because it's due to their heroic virtue, whatever effect it had would no longer be ex opere operato (like some BoB proponents hold) but ex opere operantis.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Three conditions required for a Catholic Martyrdom
    « Reply #20 on: February 12, 2019, 02:18:26 PM »
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  • Since they were endowed with reason, they could actually willingly embrace their martyrdom.  So because it's due to their heroic virtue, whatever effect it had would no longer be ex opere operato (like some BoB proponents hold) but ex opere operantis.
    Explain that in English.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

     

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